95 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 02 April 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Spotting was considered a complex action in which the turn the spotter was spotting they couldn't fire any weapons. Every individual LRM launcher on a 'Mech didn't share a single lock; It wasn't as simple as lock target and six 'Mechs could unleash 60 LRM's that all shared the same to-hit roll.

A fair distinction Doc!

[xXBagheeraXx]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

That is correct. LRM buff had brought out more role warfare than anything PGI did for the entire last year. Shame some people were too short sighted to see that and cried for nerf. I'm really hoping we won't go back to the old sniper dominated meta for another year, after this nerf.

Also, slow brawler is self-defeating in the present. With the addition of huge sized maps, if your brawler is not running near max engine, you should go home. The time for Frozen City/Forest Colony/River City dominated rotation is over.

NO..just..no. When everyone hides behind a hill for 10 to 15 minutes for fear of lrm death, something is wrong. The game got dull and boring as hell, and is still somewhat boring with everyone still packing lrms. Lrmageddon that never was? Please, i wish i had screenshots of the games just last night where the sky was literally filled with flights of lrms.

[Joseph Mallan]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 April 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

NO..just..no. When everyone hides behind a hill for 10 to 15 minutes for fear of lrm death, something is wrong. The game got dull and boring as hell, and is still somewhat boring with everyone still packing lrms. Lrmageddon that never was? Please, i wish i had screenshots of the games just last night where the sky was literally filled with flights of lrms.

I agree. If you are hiding behind cover for that long there is something wrong with your team's competence. Specially if Missiles are not flying cause the enemy has no LoS to you!

[Sprouticus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 April 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

NO..just..no. When everyone hides behind a hill for 10 to 15 minutes for fear of lrm death, something is wrong. The game got dull and boring as hell, and is still somewhat boring with everyone still packing lrms. Lrmageddon that never was? Please, i wish i had screenshots of the games just last night where the sky was literally filled with flights of lrms.

by dull and boring you mean it required thought and teamwork.

Monday (pre patch) I died to LRM's in a match. It was the first time in a while (maybe 4-5 days). IT WAS MY OWN DAMN FAULT. I went to a spot where a flanking LRM boat could hit me, the only cover I had would have exposed me to direct fire. I tried to fall back, but did not make it and the LRM boat (with the help of the direct fire mechs) got me.

After being pissed for about15 seconds (mainly that the rest of my team did not push with me), I gave a menbtal nod to that LRM boat. He positioned himself really well, supported his team, and got a righteous kill. Cudos.

• If you are/were unable to avoid LRM's, it is your own fault. They are slow, you get warnings of their arrival and they are easily avoided by even the most average of players (like yours truly)
  
• If you get frustrated that a PUG goes out in the open I can understand that but it is no different than them getting caught in the open under PPC/Ac fire.
  
• If you think that taking cover is a new thing, that the game changed, then you are a BAD player. Cover has always been mandatory.
  
• If you don't like how the game plays with indirect fire, go find a new game. Seriously, not being snarky, but that is not going away. Deal with it or find a game that suits your play-style better. I hear TitanFall does not require thought, so you should be fine there (THAT was snarky)
  
• Lastly, in the end none of this matters. LRM's are viable in low Elo's. They are useless in top end Elo's. The changes recently made them a little more viable at the middle tier, but did nothing to change things at the top or bottom.

[topgun505]

I don't get people. I constantly hear complaints about PPC/AC combos running the meta. And I agree, they are. But really ... how many things can you possibly do to ACs to tone them down if they are, in fact, a problem?

You can't change the tonnage, that'd mess with canon designs and make lots of canon designs invalid.
You can't change the crit spaces they take, that'd mess with canon designs and make lots of canon designs invalid.

You can change the heat. But really a 1 pt heat hit to ACs would likely not do anything.

The biggest point of contention is the fact they are pinpoint the same as PPCs.

So, the most logical thing would be to make it so they aren't pinpoint that can be utilized in the same manner as PPCs and other pinpoint weapons.

So what options are there?

Cone of fire? For one, I think PGI already mentioned they can't, or won't do that.

So really that just leaves turning the ACs into DOT weapons (stream of shells). Yet everyone and their brother seems to be against that idea.

What else is there? Increase the recycle time? Won't do diddly to pinpoint alpha, it will just decrease the frequency of it (only slightly).

Really tiring to see someone bring up an idea and half the community shouts them down, but ... then they never suggest an alternative.

I find the current meta to be somewhat boring. But if you want to see something change and you are against an idea, at least tell us what YOU would do different instead of bashing the idea and giving no alternative.

Edited by topgun505, 02 April 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Davers]

DarkDevilDancer, on 02 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

When 8 or more people are boating AC/PPCs thats an obvious sign that somethings wrong, it got real boring real fast and it came down to the team with the most ecm mechs and most AC/PPC boats won.

Thats dull as crap and people in the games i was in were not having fun, i didn't appreciate having to use AC/PPCs just to compete because i had no chance of getting in brawl range.

Funny, if you switch LRM to AC/PPC you get every thread before the LRM buff.

[Bobzilla]

DarkDevilDancer, on 02 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

When 8 or more people are boating LRM's thats an obvious sign that somethings wrong, it got real boring real fast and it came down to the team with the most ecm mechs and most LRM boats won.

Thats dull as crap and people in the games i was in were not having fun, i didn't appreciate having to use lrm's just to compete because i had no chance of getting in brawl range.

I got multikill games with my orion using LRM's before the patch at 120, going up to 175 was too much and the instant adoption of so many people shows how good they were.

Over all they still got a buff.

8 is a bad sign? What about when you regularly get 20 ppcs/ac5s?
That's a bad sign, not people trying out the latest buff in the first week or so. Which it then died down a lot.

[Mcgral18]

topgun505, on 02 April 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Cone of fire? For one, I think PGI already mentioned they can't, or won't do.

Quick correction, CoF is already in game. MGs, SRMs and the LB10x all have one.

It was progressive convergence that hurt hit reg, so they got rid of it.

Edited by Mcgral18, 02 April 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[Pygar]

topgun505, on 02 April 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

I don't get people. I constantly hear complaints about PPC/AC combos running the meta. And I agree, they are. But really ... how many things can you possibly do to ACs to tone them down if they are, in fact, a problem?

You can't change the tonnage, that'd mess with canon designs and make lots of canon designs invalid.
You can't change the crit spaces they take, that'd mess with canon designs and make lots of canon designs invalid.

You can change the heat. But really a 1 pt heat hit to ACs would likely not do anything.

The biggest point of contention is the fact they are pinpoint the same as PPCs.

So, the most logical thing would be to make it so they aren't pinpoint that can be utilized in the same manner as PPCs and other pinpoint weapons.

So what options are there?

Cone of fire? For one, I think PGI already mentioned they can't, or won't do that.

So really that just leaves turning the ACs into DOT weapons (stream of shells). Yet everyone and their brother seems to be against that idea.

What else is there? Increase the recycle time? Won't do diddly to pinpoint alpha, it will just decrease the frequency of it (only slightly).

Really tiring to see someone bring up an idea and half the community shouts them down, but ... then they never suggest an alternative.

I find the current meta to be somewhat boring. But if you want to see something change and you are against an idea, at least tell us what YOU would do different instead of bashing the idea and giving no alternative.

I don't hear any of these complaints about "meta" and "balance" nor sales pitches about "what the game needs to be fun" until I come here to be perfectly honest.

Myself, I spent the last 2 weeks flying a 'mech that had no LRMs, no AMS, no ECM, no Autocannons, No PPCs, and no Guass Rifles... and had a blast while doing it. (Minus that I did find LRMs to be a little too good- they feel about right after being dialed back a little yesterday.)

So really, the problem isn't the mechs or the weapons...it's the pilots who are the problem.

Edited by Pygar, 02 April 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pygar, on 02 April 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I don't hear any of these complaints about "meta" and "balance" nor sales pitches about "what the game needs to be fun" until I come here to be perfectly honest.

Myself, I spent the last 2 weeks flying a 'mech that had no LRMs, no AMS, no ECM, no Autocannons, No PPCs, and no Guass Rifles... and had a blast while doing it.

So really, the problem isn't the mechs or the weapons...it's the pilots who are the problem.

Jenner or Spider???

[topgun505]

I don't know how much $ I've spent on this game. Not a crap-ton. But I have around 7 hero mechs and had done several separate MC purchases in the past. So I'd guesstimate a few hundred. I've been in MWO since early closed beta and have played for a couple hours a day on average practically every single day since I got in with no significant breaks. I've been playing Mechwarrior titles out there since MW2. Heck my license plate on my car is a reference to CBT. So I may not be ultra hardcore ... but it's safe to say I'm a fan.

Despite this, however, I have no problems walking away from this game if it continues for a significant amount of time more in the direction it is going and putting my $ elsewhere on more interesting games and projects. Now, if someone like me is saying that ... how are people less devoted/newer to the franchise going to hang in there if this current environment continues? Maybe this is just the beginnings of burn-out talking. But the balance just never seems to have been struck here and as time goes on it just doesn't seem like it's going to get there.

I booted up the Smith and Tinker video for Mechwarrior recently and I keep asking myself ... what happened to THAT game? That looks so much better than what we have now. It's just disappointing.

[Pygar]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 April 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Jenner or Spider???

Neither.

Edited by Pygar, 02 April 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pygar, on 02 April 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Neither.

Really? Now I am interested... Whatcha drivin'?

[Malorish]

WintermuteOmega, on 02 April 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

So...
That Lurmageddon thing huh? Turns out, it never really happened after all. . . . . [snip]

Are you dropping in PUG matches? They're pretty much the dominant weapon in about 60% of the matches I played yesterday, with AC/PPC (and to lesser extent ER LL) sniping dominant in the rest.

Switching out the Stalker but putting in the much faster Catapult as trial mechs just means the LRM boats can get away from you.

Overall, the game has pretty much devolved into World War I style trench warfare, where anyone is afraid to move out of cover for almost any reason. Yesterday I saw 2 Atlases cowering together in the forest colony map while LRMs rained down around them (I was one of those doing the raining). Even if they had wanted to charge, the Jaegers would have torn them to shreds at far past their own range, with even more LRMs raining down on them.

The biggest difference in games is really having a light with a Tag to break through ECM. If one side has even one light mech that can adequately fill that role, then it's typically game over.

Edited by Malorish, 02 April 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Malorish]

Davers, on 02 April 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Funny, if you switch LRM to AC/PPC you get every thread before the LRM buff.

I'd say that they are both problems. I understand that there is always a segment of players in any FPS style game that love the sniper / long range arty kind of role. But it's so dominant in MWO that you're excluding a huge amount of players that want a game where brawlers do not equal "noobs for the slaughter".

Cover should be an important mechanic, but it shouldn't be so important that it's literally the only mechanic. Nor should making a mistake of stepping out of cover mean that you're cored or dead to long range sniping/LRM boating.

[Davers]

Malorish, on 02 April 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'd say that they are both problems. I understand that there is always a segment of players in any FPS style game that love the sniper / long range arty kind of role. But it's so dominant in MWO that you're excluding a huge amount of players that want a game where brawlers do not equal "noobs for the slaughter".

Cover should be an important mechanic, but it shouldn't be so important that it's literally the only mechanic. Nor should making a mistake of stepping out of cover mean that you're cored or dead to long range sniping/LRM boating.

The problem seems to be that there is a segment of the player population that pilot the slowest mechs, loaded up with short range light weapons and want the game to cater to their play style.

Medium lasers and SRMs were usually the mainstays of light and medium mechs, not the primary weapons of assaults. The advantage of assaults was 1. Heavier armour and 2. The ability to carry multiple long range weapons.

The idea that 'brawling' means 'fighting under 270m' is not a BT concept. Look up 'brawling mechs' on sarna.net.

Simply put, if you are slow and want to knife fight people then cover IS the most important mechanic.

[Malorish]

Davers, on 02 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

The problem seems to be that there is a segment of the player population that pilot the slowest mechs, loaded up with short range light weapons and want the game to cater to their play style.

I think mostly they want to feel like they're not dead or cored in the 5 seconds after they leave cover. Right now the game ONLY caters to the segment of the player population that likes sniping or LRM boating.

Davers, on 02 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

The advantage of assaults was 1. Heavier armour and 2. The ability to carry multiple long range weapons.

This is one of those "where lore doesn't translate to MWO" things:
1. Hardpoint location vs. typical cover offered in MWO - heavily favors mechs like the JM6 with high hardpoints.
2. Pinpoint, aimed damage - something that doesn't exist in BT that makes it easy for a sniper to virtually core an Assualt in about 5-10 seconds from extremely long range.

Davers, on 02 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Simply put, if you are slow and want to knife fight people then cover IS the most important mechanic.

There's a difference between using buildings/terrain as cover in a short range (0-270 m) fight, and the current MWO meta which is much more like trench warfare with about 800-1200 m of "no man's land" in between.

[Lyoto Machida]

Damocles69, on 02 April 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Whatever. As long as indirect fire remains a thing LRMs will be inpossible to properly balance. The ability to not be able to see a target yet reamaine safely in cover, deal damage, shake screen and blind a target with that rediculose smoke effect with chained LRM 5s is a toxic gameplay mechanic.

Ability to aim needs to be rewarded. Lack luster aim should be punished

Now the problem was chain fired LRM5s and not 50-70 LRM salvos at once? Which one is it?

[Navy Sixes]

You forgot pulse weapons. I don't blame you; everyone else has, too. They should be the brawler's energy-weapon of choice, but they are too heavy and run too hot. PGI should make them one or the other. Both combined make every other energy weapon a better option.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 02 April 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Varent]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

That is correct. LRM buff had brought out more role warfare than anything PGI did for the entire last year. Shame some people were too short sighted to see that and cried for nerf. I'm really hoping we won't go back to the old sniper dominated meta for another year, after this nerf.

This. On many levels.

Honestly I couldnt get my heart into the game to want to login for about a day or two once I heard they were going to nerf the lrms again.

It was one of the best things they did to buff them where they were at.