22 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Yesterday it occurred to me that all these Assaults and Heavies throw a hissy fit about brawling and how it has been nerfed and is now almost a zombie.

Caustic valley yesterday around 4pm EST. I sat there in my Jenner and looked at all of these damn assault mechs cowering behind rocks and said screw this. The Red team was doing the same that our team was doing. Their assaults and heavies were scared to turn the damn corner and it dawned on me there were only 1 or 2 snipers or LRM boats on both sides holding each other off. So I went to work. At all my 150 KPH I would get in there mix it up and get out. Making sure not to get to over extended. Before you know it one of the enemy Streak Kintaro got over anxious and followed me to the rest of my group. Low and behold my team turn the corner and OMG it was like a light, there were only being hit by 2 snipers which quickly ended up getting their heads blown off as they went up. The group pushed and we won. Afterwards at the scoreboard I was sitting at 800 something damage and the next highest assault was 600 something

Moral of the story is...

If you cower behind a rock and are to damn scared to take a hit stop your bitching when a light mech out damages you. Every match is different and it will not work for others. But all I see is brawling nerfed this brawling nerfed that. Guess what, if you all start to move those snipers will not last long when you have 3 or 4 mechs targetting them as they go up.

Assaults Heavies quit your complaining about lights putting up higher damage. We just are not scared of taking hits.

Rants and educational moment off

Edited by Darian DelFord, 02 April 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Zervziel]

Oh joy, a Hero thread, complete with a condescending lecture about others hiding behind cover...like they're supposed to do instead of wandering out into the open only to get sniped and missiled to death.

Part of knowing how to play an assault or a heavy is knowing when to commit to an attack and when not too. As a light player, lrms don't quite pose the same threat to you as they do other mechs. That assault you're whining about hiding behind a rock is slow as hell and is exposed longer when moving from cover to cover.

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Assaults Heavies quit your complaining about lights putting up higher damage. We just are not scared of taking hits.

No, you just happen to be fast enough to avoid most fire when others can't and can literally outrun missiles for the most part. And yet I get this feeling that when collision is put back in, you'll be in here crying about how you got tackled and promptly nuked.

Also don't forget that with the way heavier mechs are handled now, they are actually more limited in the areas they can actually go.

Edited by Zervziel, 02 April 2014 - 01:05 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Look at your next match and tell me really how many snipers are out there. Yes some matches will have more. However it was like a relvelation, they moved to intercept the Kintaro and all started hitting the jump snipers as they were going up. Remember most snipers will not fire until they begin to fall. Yes there will be some damage but when you have 2 to 4 mechs firing at that sniper most likely he will not jump again and will have to move. By that time your force is there.

Yes lights have the advantage of speed. But how many threads and post litter this forum about the damage numbers lights put up. Its not because we are heavily armored thats for sure. Its because we are not afraid to get in and mix it up. I am telling you, turn the corner and start hitting them and they will stop. It was absoutely amzaing.

Moral of the story is, if your not going to take a hit then don't complain. There are times lights myself included go on a suicide run just to get the backs turned for our team. We are not afraid to die. Yes yes, I know about maneuverability. Well, that is the only defense that I have.

Granted in all fairness, I think in game voice chat would significantly change this game and the way its played

[Iskareot]

I remember brawling.... good times.

Now I LEARNST TO STAND BEHIND ROCK FOR 10 MINS I WIN!

[Zervziel]

Darian DelFord, on 02 April 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Look at your next match and tell me really how many snipers are out there. Yes some matches will have more. However it was like a relvelation, they moved to intercept the Kintaro and all started hitting the jump snipers as they were going up. Remember most snipers will not fire until they begin to fall. Yes there will be some damage but when you have 2 to 4 mechs firing at that sniper most likely he will not jump again and will have to move. By that time your force is there.

This only works if the enemy team is utterly unorganized and lacks the common sense to communicate. I've seen that very tactic employed to draw the opposing team into a trap. Also there are sometimes teams of jump snipers that focus fire. Guess who drops when you're standing out in the open?

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Yes lights have the advantage of speed. But how many threads and post litter this forum about the damage numbers lights put up. Its not because we are heavily armored thats for sure. Its because we are not afraid to get in and mix it up. I am telling you, turn the corner and start hitting them and they will stop. It was absolutely amazing.

No, it's because you have the speed to get in and get out at your leisure. Maybe some of the speedier medium mech can keep up, but the rest of us sure can't. Not too mention most of the larger mechs are freaking huge. We're a bigger target than you are by several magnitudes. Seriously, the only way to make a jenner a bigger target than an Atlas is to have the atlas 300 meters away and have the Jenner at 40 meters away and stationary. That coupled with our slow speed means we're taking hits far longer. Oh and we actually have to find cover that's actually big enough for us.

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Moral of the story is, if your not going to take a hit then don't complain. There are times lights myself included go on a suicide run just to get the backs turned for our team. We are not afraid to die. Yes yes, I know about maneuverability. Well, that is the only defense that I have.

Maneuverability, small stature, and speed are not something to take so lightly. If a brawler banshee wants to get close to play, he's gotta wait for the best time to make his move. Otherwise he'll end up crushed into the ground by long range support. You get to do damage whenever you want, where ever you want because you get to control where you want to engage for the most part since there's a ton of cover for a small mech. Others actually have to think or end up dead metal.

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Granted in all fairness, I think in game voice chat would significantly change this game and the way its played

It's PGI. Do not underestimate what these dudes can screw up!

[Mcgral18]

Well, the biggest issue with brawling is that most weapons intended for close range combat, are rather poor. Ballistics are high DPS, low heat weapons. They are well suited to brawling. They also have the longest range of all the weapons, including a 3x max range modifier.

Fix short range weapons, and you'd see more people willing to get close and use those no longer horrid weapons. Risk VS reward. As it is, very little incentive to get close.

[Pilotasso]

In order to survive right now you need to have a fast mech and long range weapons. Driving a heavy brawler has consistently been the root cause of my death under 1 minute into the match.

[DasSibby]

Yes... I'm a fairly new player, but I totally agree. Fix brawling. I saved up and bought my Atlas, and now I can't get in close because of LRMs, snipers, etc... (and no.. I don't just rush straight in.)

I don't see my Atlas as being invincible, but I would like to be able to feel like a tank, rather than a slow moving milk jug...

[Truesight]

Well, i have been brawling since close beta, and most of my builds today are still short range heavy. I do not think, that it is that hard to brawl, but it is very map dependent, there are maps (Caustic, Alpine,... ) where you will not be effective, while on River City you can rock the house.

The simple reason, why everyone plays "sniper builds" is, you don't have huge disadvantages at almost any range and it is very easy to use, with 2 x AC/5 + 2 PPC you sometimes see people who fire all of those in 1 weapon group (i know, when you spectate, you dont see their weapon groups!). At the most, you do need 2 Weapon groups.

A mixed Brawler (Med lasers, AC/20, maybe LL or LRMs...) needs at least 3 groups and he can not fire all of them at all ranges.

[Bilbo]

Pilotasso, on 02 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

In order to survive right now you need to have a fast mech and long range weapons. Driving a heavy brawler has consistently been the root cause of my death under 1 minute into the match.

You need a slower mech.....It takes me longer than that to find the other team's death-ball in most cases.

[Zervziel]

Bilbo, on 03 April 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

You need a slower mech.....It takes me longer than that to find the other team's death-ball in most cases.

I tend to find the death-ball by having it roll right over me.

[Bilbo]

Zervziel, on 03 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

I tend to find the death-ball by having it roll right over me.

It will happen on occasion. Such is life. Still makes for a much more interesting match for me though.

[Zervziel]

Bilbo, on 03 April 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

It will happen on occasion. Such is life. Still makes for a much more interesting match for me though.

Though I think my biggest problem is I need to chose a role and stick with it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zervziel, on 03 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

I tend to find the death-ball by having it roll right over me.

Yeah... I seem to be that guy too. It makes it kinda fitting that I am a part of Murphy's Law!

Murphy's Law:
The Lone Assault Mech will always be your best scout!

[DaZur]

I dunno... I cringe every time I see a post that infers that utilization of cover is some how lazy and or non-conducive to battlefield tactics.

For some bizarre reason folks make the assumption that because our mechs are big stompy armored war machines we're just supposed to wade into battle with impunity damning and sense of self preservation or utilization of tactics....

The winner is the side that survives or achieves it's mission goals... Hard to do when your deceased.

Yes, absolutely war is a battle of attrition. That said... I'm more inclined to do things to leverage my odds of survival... Charging into the fray for the sake of expediting the advancement of a brawl is not necessarily part of that decision making process.

[Joseph Mallan]

Like you DaZur

Patton said:
No ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ******* die for his country.

I like Patton's thinking best! Don't be a Dumb *******.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 April 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[Ultimax]

Darian DelFord, on 02 April 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yes lights have the advantage of speed. But how many threads and post litter this forum about the damage numbers lights put up. Its not because we are heavily armored thats for sure. Its because we are not afraid to get in and mix it up. I am telling you, turn the corner and start hitting them and they will stop. It was absoutely amzaing.

I think you're missing a few key points.

1) Speed allows you to reposition as needed, going to the wrong place at the wrong time is a mistake that be corrected for with speed. Slow Mechs that make course direction mistakes usually either die, or never make it to the party.

2) Avoidance (through speed) is like mobile cover. You can simply avoid being hit by moving fast and erratically.

3) Playing a bigger mech means you are both physically large and therefore easier to hit, you are slow enough that you are easy to hit, you carry enough firepower that you are a high priority target.



Assaults and to a lesser extent heavies, really need to know when to commit.

Commit too early and you will be, exposed and destroyed. Commit too late and you will likely not contribute enough to justify your tonnage.

I don't really have an issue with lights putting up solid damage, as long as they also remember that part of their job is scouting and capping.


My main issue with lights is that the way avoidance works, and some of the lingering hit registration issues, lights can often hop right into the center of 2 or 3 assaults with near impunity.

No assault functions this way, no heavy functions this way and no medium functions this way. None of them can realistically just dive into the center of 2 or 3 other mechs and just avoid incoming damage.


While I don't think 3/3/3/3 is a perfect solution, hopefully we will see more mediums capable of hunting or deterring lights.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I don't see brawling as dead at all, but my definition of brawling must be different than other players definition.

I think of brawling as close range engagement. That means manuvering, using cover and flanking if possible (especially if your group is on the same page). It does require waiting for the enemy to come to you sometimes and it almost always envolves cover. It is about pushing a tactical advantage wgen you can and tearing the enemy apart at closer ranges when the opportunity presents itself.

I still do this a lot and it is still usefull. My Hunch "Swayback" is purely a brawler and she is just under a 2 KDR.

That is my defintion of brawling. I do feel some players definition of brawling is walking straight towards the enemy unloading all their weapons, and if their target survives, they circle straffe each other in an open field till the weaker mech goes down.

That isn't brawling, that is just a way to get focused on by PPCs and LRMs from the enemy team (basically just questionable tactics at best).

[Trauglodyte]

Darian DelFord, on 02 April 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Yesterday it occurred to me that all these Assaults and Heavies throw a hissy fit about brawling and how it has been nerfed and is now almost a zombie.

Caustic valley yesterday around 4pm EST. I sat there in my Jenner and looked at all of these damn assault mechs cowering behind rocks and said screw this. The Red team was doing the same that our team was doing. Their assaults and heavies were scared to turn the damn corner and it dawned on me there were only 1 or 2 snipers or LRM boats on both sides holding each other off. So I went to work. At all my 150 KPH I would get in there mix it up and get out. Making sure not to get to over extended. Before you know it one of the enemy Streak Kintaro got over anxious and followed me to the rest of my group. Low and behold my team turn the corner and OMG it was like a light, there were only being hit by 2 snipers which quickly ended up getting their heads blown off as they went up. The group pushed and we won. Afterwards at the scoreboard I was sitting at 800 something damage and the next highest assault was 600 something

Moral of the story is...

If you cower behind a rock and are to damn scared to take a hit stop your bitching when a light mech out damages you. Every match is different and it will not work for others. But all I see is brawling nerfed this brawling nerfed that. Guess what, if you all start to move those snipers will not last long when you have 3 or 4 mechs targetting them as they go up.

Assaults Heavies quit your complaining about lights putting up higher damage. We just are not scared of taking hits.

Rants and educational moment off

Brawling is something that I think a lot of people get absolutely wrong. Quite frankly, most people that play this game designing mechs and all too many people build their mechs with an "all or nothing" mindset. IF you're going to be a brawler, you need to have some semblance of long range attach power so that you can do something as you close the gap. Furthermore, brawling doesn't need to be within 50m of your target which a lot of people also fail to realize. Brawling is technically anything within 270m (SRM and Md Laser sweet spot). Light mechs can get away with running Small Lasers but heavier mechs ned to stay clear of them due to their mech's inability to move with speed and agility.

How most people WANT to play brawling is typically suicide on the simplest terms. Rushing in head long with nothing outside of 270m is idiotic and expecting to live when you're going into a death ball is even worse. In short, pure brawling is a moron's game and should be discouraged at every opportunity.



PS> It should be noted that people are often unwilling to move as a group or, more importantly, be the first person to move because PUGs can't be trusted to follow. I can't tell you how many games I've played where I decided to lead the charge. The end result was me getting turned into a smoldering slag of a mech and seeing the rest of my team move in the opposite direction after they saw what happened to me. So, truth be told, you can push the line but if nobody follows, you will fail.

PS2> It is all fine and good that you did 800 damage in your Jenner. Try doing that same thing in a mech that isn't extremely small and doesn't have JJs. Jump in Hunchback or a Centurion and play it the same way and see how well you do. Jenner/Firestarter/Spider pilots run their mouths too much when the bulk of their success is based on grazing damage on random mechs and avoiding most of the incoming damage due to bad enemies, poor hit code, and *drum roll* JJs.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 03 April 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[Zervziel]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Yeah... I seem to be that guy too. It makes it kinda fitting that I am a part of Murphy's Law!

Murphy's Law:
The Lone Assault Mech will always be your best scout!

What's worse is sometimes you can see it coming, but if you're in an assault mech all you can do is attempt to back away while firing your weapons and hoping your teammates haven't ****** off to the ends of the map.

Ugh. People wonder why I don't push as much these days and it usually comes down to the fact that when I do push, everyone else decides I have things covered and promptly wander off, leaving me to get gangbanged by an entire lance of mechs.