450 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

I have more fun playing this game with a group of friends. I'm still effective if I PuG...it's just more boring.

I've been in steamrolls (12-0) as a PuG where my team won...and I asked if we had premades. Nope. I've been in steamrolls where I WAS the premade group, with 3 friends.

I've been in steamrolls that LOST where I was the premade group.

Premades aren't what makes focus fire effective. They aren't what makes huddling INEFFECTIVE. Even PuG's have a concept of teamwork...sometimes .

And when 3-3-3-3 comes out and each team is only allowed a SINGLE premade that's then ALWAYS matched with another on the opposite side, I hope you continue to experience steamrolls if only for the sake that you'll have to eat crow and find some other reason to blame your losses on.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost Badger, on 04 April 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

I have more fun playing this game with a group of friends. I'm still effective if I PuG...it's just more boring.

Literally, you should have left it right here Badger! This is the main reason I don't play MW:O 7-8 hours a night any more. Murphy's Law got together to Kick the crap out of any and all comers, and for a while we had a blast doing it. Then came 4 man Max or 8 and no less. the 12 or stay home. PGI Literally made the game into a pool of folks who have no interest in the game other then walking around shooting other player's toons!

I came here to play the 3050 Clan Invasion against PEOPLE as the Clans. I wanted the fun and the thrill of Being on Coms with the same group of players for months fighting the good fight against a superior opponent...
Now I have Arena bowl... Solaris is nice... once I finish with the Clans!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 April 2014 - 06:34 AM.

[DaZur]

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

ah, yes, so unfortunately for you that approximately 80% of those players in the queue are NOT even interested in forming a premade team.

edit: to pgi, i hope you one day stop listening to the 1% of old players in the forum and tend to the needs of the other 99% of the players

Way to position that statistic to preface your opinion that no one want to partisipate in team play.

I argue that a sizable percentage of that 80% is comprised of players that might have been part of a premade group or Clan at one point and they became discouraged and either disbanded or they are still active but so flipping unmotivated to participate in any team based activities because the environment has become so anti-team centric.

Not one person in the discussion is inferring PUGs take a backseat to anything... If anything, the trending opinion is to create division so no one has to step on anyone's toes and everyone can be happy... So spare me the condescending snark.

Truth is... I PUG probably 90% of my available play-time. Yet I'm smart enough to appreciate the value of teams and the advantages fostered.

Edited by DaZur, 04 April 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Magna Canus]

Exibit A; Forum post where pure PUGs express their sympathy to a new guy and *gasp* say they are having fun and doing well in MWO. OMG, not every solo player fears to look under his bed.

http://mwomercs.com/...98#entry3271598

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

I am neither little or Furry DaZ

You're a little furry around your liquor and pie receptacle....

[AlmightyAeng]

Magnakanus, on 04 April 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Exibit A; Forum post where pure PUGs express their sympathy to a new guy and *gasp* say they are having fun and doing well in MWO. OMG, not every solo player fears to look under his bed.

http://mwomercs.com/...98#entry3271598

Your logic is not appreciated here, sir. You and your various alt accounts obviously padded that thread.

HEINOUS!

Edited by Ghost Badger, 04 April 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Sorry, I had to come back to this

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

so you say that it is bad to remove 4 man players with tactical advantages out of the random queue is bad because there is a matchmaking system that needs to be improved?

No, I don't think anyone is saying that really, We'd all pretty much LOVE to have a group queue, where we didn't have to suffer the effects of the derpherd zerging their way into the PUGZAPPER.
But unfortunately, PGI will not only not give us a group queue, but forces us to only bring <4 of our friends so we can't even mitigate the damage caused by the tragically anti-social by bringing more organized players to the fight.

This is why you'll often read in matches, when a team on each side knows each other, the loosing team say "gg, you won the PUGlottery"

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

do you offer even one, single reason that is not completely absurd? or are you just lobbying to continue farming random player groups with your friends?

I'm sorry, I don't even know what you're talking about here, all I hear is "EVIL PREMADE BOOGEYMEN ATE MY BABY!"

By the way, I'm still trying to find the dev post where they stated that their data showed that the majority of lopsided matches didn't even have a group in the match, if anyone has that link, for me to bookmark, that'd be great.

Edited by Roadbeer, 04 April 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Amsro]

Craig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

LOL, no way.

I strongly suspect that its not correct for MW:O. Theres a big difference between the MMO RPG Guild mentality and the MW:O game play. In my experience, people have greater affiliation with their toon in a MMORPG and thats where the revenue drives from, new clothes or whatever. I see an awful lot of camo green in MW:O. But sure, I can agree about tenure being a revenue multiplier too.

But no matter what I think, I don't have any numbers specific for PGI so my thoughts, like Roadbeers, is personal opinion based on anecdotal experience.

All I do is look at what PGI have said, which is that they perceive the game needs to accommodate the majority demographic they have identified. They have also said they are going to empower team play with more choices and options so I still don't get what all the angst is about.

The only real change I can see is that PGI are removing the ability of Pre Made teams to wail on PUG's over and over. I don't see that as a bad thing but then I've never been in the boat of wailing on PUG's for laughs.

So why are people upset with the change.

1. PUGs were NEVER stomped by PreMade, PUGs are the number one stomper of PUGS. This is proven to be tru by PGI's own data.
2. People are upset with the change because it isn't a change. We already had this matchmaker. 1 for 1 class matched mechs. Zzzz Lazy fix round 2.

Craig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Don't like 3/3/3/3, set the game mode yourself and play with your friends / Guild
Want to play Clan vs IS pure canon, set the game mode and set the lobbies with your friends / Guild
Want to play with comms against a real opponent, post on forums that you're looking for a match or check the external server sites for opposition.

I mean honestly, as Da Zur said in the OP, theres a lot more to enjoy from the game with teams / Guilds so why do they seem so insistent on wailing on PUG's as well. Play the game you prefer with the tools PGI provided against an equally enabled opponent.

1.PGI has provided no such tools. Even if 8 of us are online in a group ready to launch, who do we launch against? There is no search function, no rewards, no reason to use this ill-planned feature.

2. The Majority of us "team" players would also like to see a Solo Only que. But I guarantee the "pug" stomping will continue even if teams are only a ghost at that point.

3. Stop with this reoccuring idea of pug smashing/clubbing/stomping. If you think that is what the team players want you ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

Craig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Why are people upset that Pre Made Teams / Guilds will have more empowerment to play the game their way than PUG's locked into a drop structure playing with only in game sounds.

The only realistic answer I can come up in my mind is that the vocal ones not only want all the options, they also want food to blow away with all their advantages (read, numpty PUG's fighting with one arm tied behind their back).

If thats so, I'm not shedding a tear.

This whole thing is full of conjecture, ask ridiculous question and force your own answer.

Craig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

From PGI's view point, if 84% of their player base is dropping solo then they absolutely should accommodate that market. After all, some of those solo players are the "team" players of the future.

And from an "outsiders" point of view PGI has failed, this game requires 24 people every match.

average of 3.8 players between both teams are grouped up
leaving 20.2 players as solo puggers

So where do the pug stomps come from. Why is the team game solo oriented. Most importantly;

where is the data BEFORE the 4 Man cap was in place? How many people played in groups before you ruined groups!?

The short sightedness of the arguments against 2-12 ANY group size is comical.

Solo Drop Que
Any Drop Que

Edited by Amsro, 04 April 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[RG Notch]

Roadbeer, on 03 April 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Russ addressed this in the NGNG 105a interview. Something about how internal testing showed...blah,blah,blah, just doesn't work something or other, blah,blah,blah... they know fun better than we do... over 100 years of development experience, blah, blah, blah... programming is hard or something like that.

How does over 100 years of experience making Grade ZZZ shovelware and console hunting and fishing games translate into real game making experience? I figure it's gotta be worse than that 7 to 1 dog year thing.

[Amsro]

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

ah, yes, so unfortunately for you that approximately 80% of those players in the queue are NOT even interested in forming a premade team.

This is so wrong its comical that people can't see through this. Of the 84% that drop "solo" a large number of them are there because their group of people already are at the 4 friend maximum, so rather then wait for another or split the team or many other crappy options. We just drop solo instead. I do this.

I end up roughly %50 solo/team play, not entirely by choice. I know I'm not alone in this. Maybe half the solo droppers are in the same boat as me. We'll never know because PGI doesn't actually know how to use their own data, nor will they release it to those of us who do.

Using one data sample as your foundation for your claim is obtuse to say the least.

[Roadbeer]

Amsro, on 04 April 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

where is the data BEFORE the 4 Man cap was in place? How many people played in groups before you ruined groups!?

AtD 34

Quote

Naitsirch: Will there be a no-premade / solo-drop mode or not.

A: We’re looking at it. Currently most MWO players actually play in groups.

I've gotten pretty good at finding that quote lately

[wanderer]

Quote

1. PUGs were NEVER stomped by PreMade, PUGs are the number one stomper of PUGS. This is proven to be tru by PGI's own data.

I beg to differ. When we were in 8-man matches, I'd go on the Liao TS, we'd get an 8-man together.

We didn't lose matches for hours on end unless we ran into another 8-man premade. That's where the "premades stomp PUGs" comes from. And heck, I am NOT a l33t player, just an average MWO veteran. But yeah. Stomping PUGs. For hours straight. Running into another 8-man was a treat, everything else was generally grinding out PUGs for exp/money.

The reason it's less true now is that 4 of 12 is less effective than 4 of 8, or 8 of 8 being organized. Put PUGs back into a situation where we could generate groups that were 50% premade, and the grinder would once again be turning.

[Amsro]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

AtD 34


I've gotten pretty good at finding that quote lately

PGI done broke their own game in a meager 12 months.

But no please all you 84% hallucinogenic ravers please tell me more about everyone wants to be a solo player. Nothing to do with being forced into a 4 man cap.

I personally like to have seperate groups of friends. All in 3's this way I can lance up at my leisure.

[Amsro]

wanderer, on 04 April 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

I beg to differ. When we were in 8-man matches, I'd go on the Liao TS, we'd get an 8-man together.

We didn't lose matches for hours on end unless we ran into another 8-man premade. That's where the "premades stomp PUGs" comes from. And heck, I am NOT a l33t player, just an average MWO veteran. But yeah. Stomping PUGs. For hours straight. Running into another 8-man was a treat, everything else was generally grinding out PUGs for exp/money.

The reason it's less true now is that 4 of 12 is less effective than 4 of 8, or 8 of 8 being organized. Put PUGs back into a situation where we could generate groups that were 50% premade, and the grinder would once again be turning.

Dude that is AGES ago, and you provided your own answer to the problem. Matching you with another Premade, so matchmaker was flawed, not the team aspect.

I would be honored to battle vs that 8 man with an 8 man of our own. But that can't happen because. I don't even really know why not. No sane reason to be sure.

Give solo casuals their own que already.

single player que
group que with competent/intrigued solo players.

Edited by Amsro, 04 April 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[DaZur]

wanderer, on 04 April 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

I beg to differ. When we were in 8-man matches, I'd go on the Liao TS, we'd get an 8-man together.

We didn't lose matches for hours on end unless we ran into another 8-man premade. That's where the "premades stomp PUGs" comes from. And heck, I am NOT a l33t player, just an average MWO veteran. But yeah. Stomping PUGs. For hours straight. Running into another 8-man was a treat, everything else was generally grinding out PUGs for exp/money.

The reason it's less true now is that 4 of 12 is less effective than 4 of 8, or 8 of 8 being organized. Put PUGs back into a situation where we could generate groups that were 50% premade, and the grinder would once again be turning.

Just a little correction.

Your 8 man premade did not cause the stomp... Oh, it definitely expedited it. The stomp resulted from your teams ability to quickly focus down 2 to 3 of your opposing teams numbers to instigate the combat loss attrition tipping point.

It's a bullet / gun thing... That same kind of statistical result would have manifested in one of the teams regardless of the caliber of the players. It just would have taken longer.

Edited by DaZur, 04 April 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[DaZur]

LOL... Just stumbled upon this meme and I can't believe how apropos it is to the present discussion!

How PUG players who buy into the boogieman theory see premades:

[Disapirro]

DaZur, on 04 April 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

I still cannot believe after the discussions volleyed back and forth, the functional math and statistical patterns demonstrated and the demonstrable proof shown that "stomps" are the result of combat loss attrition and compounded force strength, yet people still cling to the notion that premades are the singular culpable force.

I'm sorry to say, it's that kind of over reaching opinion that continues to be propagated that perpetually keeps premades viewed as small woodland animal defilers and consumers of newborns....

I dont believe most are saying that is not the case, but what leads to that is the timely and effective coordination of groups on comms vs a mob not on comms.

[Disapirro]

Magnakanus, on 04 April 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

It comes down to this really. I actually think I have changed my mind. I want In-game VoiP and PUG only ques. Know why?

I want to laugh, gloat, and giggle at the number of QQ threads that will pop up like mushrooms in the wood after a rain.

Titles;
Verbal abuse on Comms!!! He/She called me a useless noob, told me to F-off, etc.
MWO looses the majority of its female players due to sexist comments and/or lewd remarks
ELO Hell! I am getting stomped by evil high ELO PUG teams! (e.g. Pre-made surrogate)
Droves of meta humpers sync dropping into the PUG que (real or immagined)
I am such an awesome leader but nobody listens to me
Tactical disasters lead PUGs to damnation

The list goes on and on. I am actually intrigued as to what the excuses will be once the ground basis for the current excuses has been removed.

In the end I begin to believe that it really comes down to "I am not winning, everything besides me has to be wrong".

Not sure why you would be against comms, you could mute, other than it may help the random pugs organize and fight more effectively.

Dozier, on 04 April 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

I would say 25% of my drops (in premades) are with people NOT on comms or someone in group isn't on comms with us. This is because mostly they are European and either there is language issues, or their time zone doesn't allow them to be loud (people sleeping).

Now why am I playing with these folks when lack of comms should be an issue? BECAUSE they know what they are doing, and don't have to have their hand held.


If/when I drop solo it only because I am waiting for others to log on, or swapping out with others in group. EVERY match there are solo players trying to sync with the 4 mans (another reason I find the 86% skewed....)We have brothers that log on to play together, dads playing with kids, co-workers getting it in, AND people dropping with new players helping them out. EVERY single person that plays with us says they will forget this game if premades are removed. I dare it to be removed

its not just that they know what they are doing, it is more that they know how you will play and react to it intinctively. I'm sorry, but in game comms are not a detriment.

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

So in a nut shell Magna is saying,

THE BEST TEAM ALWAYS WINS!!!!

No the team that is organized, reacts quickly, focus fires, calls out op4 movement, etc. is the winner.

[Craig Steele]

slide, on 04 April 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

@ Craig,

I will not debate semantics on numbers that PGI quote. If you choose to believe them feel free to do so. I choose to believe there is more to that story.

It might be a typo in your last post but I said "pay to play" not "pay to win".

From Pauls thread

http://mwomercs.com/...93-feb-27-2014/

all the way at the bottom.

Special Note: The use of Premium Time to get access to the more advanced options is currently a temporary implementation. The plan is to eventually move to a pay-per-use model which will fit much better into both the player experience and business model requirements.

Premium Time is a stop gap measure until they can implement a pay per use model most likely with MC. From the horses mouth. If I want to play with 5 of my friends 2 of us have to pay (2 drop leads) simple as that. No interpretation required it is in turquoise and black in the thread link above.

Having been here since the day this website went live I have learnt to neither believe nor have any faith on what PGI say. Call me negative if you like, but the sad reality is they change their minds more often than the wind and will jump at what ever band wagon gets them the most income. This sadly is what we have now. I will have to pay to play with my friends or I have to pug, There is or soon will be no other choice.

When you have been around longer and your biggest wish for this game gets canned for "reasons" you might understand.
I have been shafted on at least 4 occasions that I can think of were they have done an about face on promises and design pillars PGI themselves have made, usually after the end of a big promotion. The only reason the current 12v12 queue exists is because we had to sign a pact with the devil himself, to get it in, otherwise that queue would have gone the way of the Dodo as well.

I still maintain that the single best solution for both sides of this argument is separate queues. PGI either won't do it or can't do because of the playing population being too low. They are already prevaricating on the launch date for CW, I think it is directly linked to the number of people playing. If they can't separate out 16% from the other 84% how the hell are they going to split out 8-15 different factions?

So what I read from this is my opinion / thoughts are irrelevant because you have a longer tenure with the game than I do. Is that the message you intended to communicate because thats what I heard. If you intended to communicate otherwise, maybe you need to re phrase.

If that is the message you intended then my response is that the guys at PGI have a longer tenure than you, so suck it up. Basically if you are telling me to shut up because you have a longer tenure, you should take your own advice, just saying.

Magnakanus, on 04 April 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

It is amazing isn't it? 16% of the player base is completely stomping the other 84%. Isn't that sad? I just wonder when those 16% actually sleep, eat, work, or do other things in life, don't you? I mean, for them to be responsible for every stomp they have to be online 24/7, waiting to swoop down on the unsuspecting baby seals, clubs-a-waivin'. Now THAT'S dedication.

This is just a complete mis representation. I'm not saying teams are evil, I have freely declared that I play in organised teams so for you to take my comments as some acqusation is ridiculous.

My point is that team players have no basis for complaining about the proposed changes. They are being given much more empowerment than they ever had before. The only thing they are loosing is the ability to wail of PUG's who do not have the same advantages as them.

Why is that a problem?

I have yet to see a adequate response from anyone as to what the actual issue is for team players with the proposed amendments. It sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining or complaining because they haven't bothered to digest what the actual communication from PGI is and just grabbed onto the headline in forums that some scaremonger has posted.

Amsro, on 04 April 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

1. PUGs were NEVER stomped by PreMade, PUGs are the number one stomper of PUGS. This is proven to be tru by PGI's own data.
2. People are upset with the change because it isn't a change. We already had this matchmaker. 1 for 1 class matched mechs. Zzzz Lazy fix round 2.


1 (relabelled as 2 below).PGI has provided no such tools. Even if 8 of us are online in a group ready to launch, who do we launch against? There is no search function, no rewards, no reason to use this ill-planned feature.

2. (relabelled as 3. below) The Majority of us "team" players would also like to see a Solo Only que. But I guarantee the "pug" stomping will continue even if teams are only a ghost at that point.

3. (relabelled as 4. below) Stop with this reoccuring idea of pug smashing/clubbing/stomping. If you think that is what the team players want you ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.



(5.) This whole thing is full of conjecture, ask ridiculous question and force your own answer.



And from an "outsiders" point of view PGI has failed, this game requires 24 people every match.

average of 3.8 players between both teams are grouped up
leaving 20.2 players as solo puggers

So where do the pug stomps come from. Why is the team game solo oriented. Most importantly;

where is the data BEFORE the 4 Man cap was in place? How many people played in groups before you ruined groups!?

The short sightedness of the arguments against 2-12 ANY group size is comical.

Solo Drop Que
Any Drop Que

1. PGI disagrees, and they have more data than all of us. Or do you have some insight that PGI are not aware of?

2. OFC not, we are talking about the proposed changes. Why be argumentative about it and cite the current state of arrangements? PGI are however proposing to empower 5 - 11 man teams to create their own game environment. Go read the official communication. Then come back and discuss.

3. Really, you are the elected spokesmperson for all "team players"? I didn't get my voting slip. I suspect what you mean to say is that YOU think that PUG stomping will continue. However PGI have said they think this is a point of progress towards enhancing the PUG game experience. Can you quote your source that gives you more information / judgement than PGI has?

4. How about you stop with this recurring un based opinion that PUG's do not have an opinion on their game experience. The fact is they have expressed their opinion on their game experience and whether you agree with it or not, it is their game experience. Try embracing the feedback and working with it instead of sticking your head in the sand and saying "it ain't so".

5.

con·jec·ture
[kuhn-jek-cher] expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2.
an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

So asking a question is now expressing an opinion? English language has clearly changed markedly since I went to school. Whats lamentable is that you don't have an answer. WHY ARE PRE MADE TEAM PLAYERS UPSET WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO TRASH PUG's? Because as PGI have said, that is the only material change they propose. So why the angst?

If you want to deflect and attack me thats fine, I got broad shoulders. But do you have an answer or is this just a case of play the man?

Whats comical with your post is that you offer not alot except to attack the questions.

Can you actually answer them with anything of substance?

Let me reiterate.

AFAIK (from PGI's official advices), the only material change PGI proposed is that 4 man teams will not queue with PUG's. Why is this such a point of contention for 'so many' team players?

AFAIK (from PGI's official advices), organised teams will be empowered with the flexibility to manage their game experience to a much larger degree than PUG's have, why is this a problem?

AFAIK (from PGI's official advices) They want to enhance the gaming experience of team based play and are keen to retain that player demogrpahic, even though it is a minority. Why do people say PGI don't care about team based play?

Can you answer these questions, or are you just going to refute them and "say it ain't so?"

Over to you.

[AlmightyAeng]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

By the way, I'm still trying to find the dev post where they stated that their data showed that the majority of lopsided matches didn't even have a group in the match, if anyone has that link, for me to bookmark, that'd be great.

Damnit Road, I've been going nuts during this maintenance reading 'cached' pages trying to find it. I distinctly remember reading it, too, but I've gone through ALL the Ask the Dev's, all the Command Chair posts...NADA.

I'm thinking it may have been in a Dev response to someone else's thread?

That said, I've found plenty of old gem's, including Garth's personal post on stomps below, lol.

Quote

Garth Erlam, on 30 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

We are taking steps to fix this (Phase 1 will be soon, in fact) but a lot of this is player perception. I play outside of groups 99% of the time, and in the last two weeks I've played against a grand total of two premades. Today I played 20 matches just to see; got zero.

It can be frustrating to lose like that, sure, but what people often forget is they're losing because they literally do zero group work. No-one uses C3, no-one even uses text chat. Then they get picked apart one by one. I managed to get a random group of guys to talk and we beat an actual premade (one of those two I faced) because a lot of the guys there were great players, they just needed a good leader.

And no, I don't mean yelling at people who don't listen to you