67 replies to this topic

[DeathlyEyes]

Someone suggested reporting this issueas a bug in the game balance topic I had started. I will quote my findings here. Not sure if this was intended......
Here is a link to that thread: http://mwomercs.com/...-to-the-victor/

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Spoiler

The Victor now performs just the same as an Atlas with the same sized engine (xl 325):



These 3 mechs all have the same sized engines(xl 310) yet the Victor handles slower despite being lighter:

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 03 April 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Ultimax]

I can confirm what SLDF Deatheyes is stating:

Here is some data collection by Ancih and put into a table:

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

data picked on mwo.smurfy-net.de
all Victor variants have the same turning, torso twist, and arm speed

for reference here the values with stock engine 320:

Walking Speed: 64.8 kph (tweak 71.3 kph)
Turning Speed: 45.86 °/s (full 360° in 7.85 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 64°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 36°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 162°/s

and also, while we are at it and just for the fun of it, the values with max engine 385:

Walking Speed: 78.0 kph (tweak 85.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 55.18 °/s (full 360° in 6.52 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 77°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 43°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 194°/s

but let's use the 300 engine to compare the Victor to other chassis:

Walking Speed: 60.7 kph (tweak 66.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 42.99 °/s (full 360° in 8.37 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 151°/s


Let's start with the Atlas, because I have seen it used as example a few posts above and since its the heaviest mech it give an interesting perspective at the Victor:

Stock engine happens to be a 300 too :

Walking Speed: 48.6 kph (tweak 53.5 kph)
Turning Speed: 34.39 °/s (full 360° in 10.47 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 135°/s

Equipped with same engine size, Atlas as expected walks slower, turns slower, and has slower arms too, BUT the torso speed is the same as the Victor.


Next, the Awesome the other 80 tons mech, equipped with a 300 engine (which is also max for all but the 9M and PB variants):

Walking Speed: 60.7 kph (tweak 66.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 42.99 °/s (full 360° in 8.37 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 82°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 46°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 168°/s

So... has the same walking and turning speed as the Victor but has 35% faster moving torso and 10% faster arms?? why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor?? I have no idea. Even more mysterious, when compared to the Victor with a maxed 385 engine, is its torso speed: Torso Yaw is 5°/s faster and Torso Pitch 3°/s faster... again why? isn't the Victor supposed to be the most agile of the two?


Let's move on to the 85 tons Stalkers and Battlemasters (they both have the exact same speed in all categories aside for the BLR-1G variant and the Misery), still using 300 engine:

Walking Speed: 57.2 kph (tweak 62.9 kph)
Turning Speed: 40.46 °/s (full 360° in 8.90 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 70°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 39°/s
Arm Yaw/ Pitch Speed: 158°/s

the Stalker and the Battlemaster do, as expected since they are 5 tons heavier, walk and turn slower but suprisingly have faster moving torso and arms than a Victor... hhmmm ok


Next The Highlander, it was also hit with a torso speed nerf (but -10% for all variant exept the 733C)

Walking Speed: 54.0 kph (tweak 59.4 kph)
Turning Speed: 38.22 °/s (full 360° in 9.42 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/ Pitch Speed: 150°/s

Walk and turn speed and also arm speed are normal and proportional to weight and engine size, but not the torso speed which is also, like the Victor, the exact same as the Atlas...

gonna skip the Banshee cause its late but check numbers down at the bottom.


So the numbers say that the Victor (and Highlander) turning speed is now fine and dandy, proportional to weight across all chassis like it should, but the torso and arm speed of the Victor compared to other assault are not at all in line, guess why? those 20% torso and 10% arm nerfs was not justified, only for the turning speed nerf was because is wasn't really a nerf is was removing a unfair agility advantage (espacially on a jumpjet chassis).

Arm speed pre nerf was 168°/s (same as the Awesome and proportional to other assault chassis, now 151°/s), Torso Yaw at 67°/s (now 60°/s) and Torso Pitch at 37°/s (now 33°/s). The real problem was partially the turning speed (which was basically a +25% ghost quirk to the Victor and needed to be brought back in line) and partially was and still is the cap for engine is a bit too high at 385 and should probably be lowered by around 15/25 rating to get 360 or 350 max and avoid that "too good for assault" reachable agility. The arm and torso speed nerf were not justified.

so again but by categories:

Torso Yaw Speed @300:

80 Victor: 60°/s
80 Awesome: 82°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 70°/s
90 Highlander: 60°/s
95 Banshee: 63°/s
100 Atlas: 60°/s

Torso Pitch Speed @300:

80 Victor: 33°/s
80 Awesome: 46°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 39°/s
90 Highlander: 33°/s
95 Banshee: 35°/s
100 Atlas: 33°/s

Arm Speed @300:

80 Victor: 151°/s
80 Awesome: 168°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 158°/s
90 Highlander: 150°/s
95 Banshee: 142°/s
100 Atlas: 135°/s

Turn Speed @300

80 Victor: 42.99 °/s 8.37 s
80 Awesome: 42.99 °/s 8.37 s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 40.46 °/s 8.90 s
90 Highlander: 38.22 °/s 9.42 s
95 Banshee: 36.21 °/s 9.94 s
100 Atlas: 34.39 °/s 10.47 s

My conlusions are that walk and turning speed, quirks aside obviously, are balanced now and proportional to engine rating and weight of the chassis across all assault mechs. The turn speed nerf was indeed justified. Torso speed for Victors and Highlanders are over nerfed by 20% and Arm Speed for Victors over nerfed by 10%.

Great post.

Here's the data in a table:

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

[Magitek]

I knew my Vector felt like it ate a massive plate of pasta. I know the Vector is one of the problem mechs, but those speeds don't make sense.

[Ultimax]

Magitek, on 03 April 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

I knew my Vector felt like it ate a massive plate of pasta. I know the Vector is one of the problem mechs, but those speeds don't make sense.

I agree.

It seems pretty bizarre that the 80 ton Victor has the same Torso Yaw and Pitch as the 100 ton Atlas.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yeah, I'm pretty unhappy about my Victor in combat, the whole thing is pretty much CT, especially with the Pivot ring that wraps around its midsection, I can't even turn to spread damage.

The whole idea behind the nerf was to make it more vulnerable as a poptart and bring it inline with other assault's based on the most used Engine configs and their speeds.

Generally, this is the one assault mech where XL engines are preferable and at its previous speeds it was doing as well as a QD or equal to most Heavy mechs in its responsiveness and reaction times.

The Turn-speed nerf didn't hurt its abilities as a poptart at all, but what it did do is pretty much ruin its ability as a brawler, and using Standard engines in it now is a complete waste of time if you want to stay competitive.

It did however reinforce the need to Poptart the mech, and play it as a sniper-bunny.

Victor has a very narrow arm angle for left to right, Its just screaming for Poptarting when its to tight.

Its huge CT wrap around + standard engines, say a fairly well rounded config like this. Swap the PPC for LPL, or ERLL if preferable.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0da84ce9552340d
or this
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...58805b042fe2362
Becomes a sluggish and very poor brawler, your CT is going to get shredded either way where previously a build like this I could at least turn some to spread the damage better.

I rarely used my Victors as poptarts with the current meta, builds like what I posted are where I'm comfortable, and where I feel I perform well which is in the medium to close range. These builds are deathtraps now.

Just like what happened to the LRM's, the change needs to be taken back about halfways from where it was and where it is now, and it will feel well rounded and right on target.

If they want to hurt poptarts, JJ was a good start, but take a look at how Gauss/AC5+PPC combo is putting any other config out of buisness. Too much pinpoint accuracy doing 30-35 (or even higher with BNC builds now) is just too much damage too fast. Everyone plays this like its CS, where everyone HAS to be the uber sniper elite. boring.

Edited by Mister D, 04 April 2014 - 01:07 AM.

[skorpionet]

this is ridiculous..... same as an Atlas ... PGI: genius at work but on other games....

[Mark of Caine]

Very interesting numbers.
I don't play Victors, but I do play my Highlander Heavy Metal a lot, and I do find this has hurt my playstyle somewhat.

I don't poptart. I find those that do are the ones that ruin this game and the spirit in which it is supposed to be played. And it's because of those players that PGI feels the need (justified or no) to nerf these mechs.

Unfortunately, as one post states, nerfing torso and turn speeds only encourages poptarting now, as this has made brawling, or even basic maneuvering, a lot harder.

The fix to pop tarting is SO simple! While in the air (and not just when the JJs are turned on), have the weapons in each section of the mech fire in a random degree within a fixed cone (akin to the cone shape of an LBX shot, but somewhat wider).

Lemme see if I can create an example here while a mech is in the air:
Left arm: 2 LLs
Right arm: AC 5
Left torso: 2 MLs
This is by no means a perfect example, but I can't draw worth a damn even if my life depended on it.
Sorry for the dotted lines; can't post empty spaces for some reason.

..........................................................LLs
................................................I
................................MLs.....---o---
................................................I
....................................................AC5

As you can see, my cone is a bit tight, but then start imagining the distance between the poptarter and his target. The further away the target is at, the harder it becomes landing the shot on target, AND the desired location too for that matter. It'll be just dumb luck hitting the target at all. And obviously, the closer you are to your target, the easier it becomes hitting while in the air, but there is still no guarantee you will hit the desired section of the enemy mech.

You can then remove the reticule shake if you want. There wouldn't be any need for it imo.

[Xenok]

Well you might get the atlas nerfed further down. PGI want Assults to have a large lumbering feel. The problem with that is they do not take enough damage to lumber around on the battle field and be effective. If they want the large lumbering feel then they need to make assults more durrable than they are now to go along with that large lumbering feel.

[Ironwithin]

Xenok, on 04 April 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Well you might get the atlas nerfed further down. PGI want Assults to have a large lumbering feel. The problem with that is they do not take enough damage to lumber around on the battle field and be effective. If they want the large lumbering feel then they need to make assults more durrable than they are now to go along with that large lumbering feel.

Or make lights and mediums less durable or reduce firepower all over or double up armor values(again), just sayin'.

[Spleenslitta]

No wonder you Victor owners are so tikked off. What is up with those numbers?
I use only lights. If PGI did this to my Jenners i would be tikked off too.

What's up with PGI? There must be some kind of missunderstanding over at PGI because even beginner level players can see that this is all wrong.
Are they rolling dice to determine these numbers?

[DeathlyEyes]

Ultimatum X, on 03 April 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

I can confirm what SLDF Deatheyes is stating:

Here is some data collection by Ancih and put into a table:



[size=4]

Great post.

Here's the data in a table:

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

I think the turn data is slightly skewed because of the variance in top speed. I am not entirely sure but it looks the same in UI 2.0 to me. I think if an Atlas is standing still and a Victor is standing still with a 300 engine they turn at the same speed.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 04 April 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[ackstorm]

Agreed, the Atlas should have its yaw and pitch speed reduced to be below the Victor.

[DeathlyEyes]

ackstorm, on 04 April 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Agreed, the Atlas should have its yaw and pitch speed reduced to be below the Victor.

NO MORE NERFING NO NO NO. The Atlas is slow enough as it is. Even if PGI nerf's the Atlas which isn't even an issue, it's almost too slow as it is there is still a slew of mech's the Victor is slower than. No need to lower anything more, PGI needs to increase the movement characteristics of the Victor.

[Ironwithin]

Spleenslitta, on 04 April 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

What's up with PGI? There must be some kind of missunderstanding over at PGI because even beginner level players can see that this is all wrong.
Are they rolling dice to determine these numbers?

It's the age-old (well...in pc-game terms) cycle of over-nerfing and over-buffing and then over-nerfing it again just to give it another buff and so on and so on.
Theoretically, at some point in the future, the game will reach perfect balance if the cycle continues. Of course that point might be so far in the future that the world of man has already ended and the cats rule the planet.

[Kenyon Burguess]

Ironwithin, on 04 April 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

It's the age-old (well...in pc-game terms) cycle of over-nerfing and over-buffing and then over-nerfing it again just to give it another buff and so on and so on.
Theoretically, at some point in the future, the game will reach perfect balance if the cycle continues. Of course that point might be so far in the future that the world of man has already ended and the cats rule the planet.

most of the mediums are the size of assaults, weve been complaining about that for years and it makes sense to change it, yet it never happens. if we cant get mediums fixed, the odds of victards getting their turning rate within this century don't look good

[Harathan]

I love how Dev replies are always conspicuously absent from threads where hard data is posted proving they messed up.

[Modo44]

JJs help, and XL friendliness helps further. This is still the most mobile assault, except now you need a big engine to feel the difference. It is not a 3D with 10 tons more mech anymore, QQ.

[Shredhead]

Modo44, on 04 April 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

JJs help, and XL friendliness helps further. This is still the most mobile assault, except now you need a big engine to feel the difference. It is not a 3D with 10 tons more mech anymore, QQ.

Reading helps, and some maths knowledge helps further. This is a very detailed thread, therefore you need a bit of brains to see the problem. It is still a very good jump sniper, but has no chance as a brawler anymore, troll.

[Taifune]

Now, at least, I understand why my Victor feels like a brick now (haven't played it for a while). To bad. I mean, it's one of the two lightest Assaults, still comes with the 1t JumpJets and therefore should not feel like an Atlas (esp. as you can fit at maximum 14 tonnes less (!!) of standard armor to it)...

With the JumpJet adjustment (that was fine for me tbh) it already was a lot more inflexible than before. Reducing the Torso and Arm movement speed by 20 and 10 percent respectively, essentially bricked it. Why not 10% and 5% and see what will be the difference. Or start with 5 percent torso movement reduction and see how statistics change over the next week or two? You can probably adjust such values better with more statistics. And maybe adjusting such values can also be done easyly by changing a single number in the game client and patching this even in between normal patches?

Looks to me, you (i.e. PGI) always over do it and miss the sweet spot by beeing to eager to do it right NOW than doing it right at all... so next time: please do small adjustments, see the outcome, and if it was not enought tweaking, do another adjustment. But please do not break everyones game over and over again...

Edited by Taifune, 05 April 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Felbombling]

Very disappointing numbers to read, given that I have purchased with real world currency the Dragon Slayer only recently.