99 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Ruhkil, on 08 April 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

gonna post the A and B variants of the clan lights from Sarna just as an FYI

• Alt. Config A The A configuration of the Kit Fox uses a Gauss Rifle as its primary long-range weapon. Two ER Medium Lasers provide medium and short-range firepower. BV (1.0) = 1,218^[2], BV (2.0) = 1,310^[1][7]

• Alt. Config B The B configuration of the Kit Fox boasts a rapid-fire Ultra Autocannon-10 as its primary weapon, startling considering the 'Mech's tonnage. An ER Medium Laser, ER Small Laser, and an SRM-6 rack allow the Kit Fox B to finish off anything that manages to close ranges. BV (1.0) = 1,016^[2], BV (2.0) = 1,088^[1], 1,087^[8] The kit Fox C is the ECM variant hopefully we can buy the C omnipods and get access to ECM for the kit fo

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  Alt. Config. A
  
  A long range missile support configuration, the Adder A has a pair of LRM-20 launchers, allowing it to bombard an enemy from long range. For close combat, the 'Mech has two Small Pulse Lasers. BV (1.0) = 1,304^[3], BV (2.0) = 1,437^[1][7]

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  Alt. Config. B
  
  A long range sniping configuration, the B configuration carries an LB-X Autocannon/5 backed up by a highly accurate Large Pulse Laser for long range engagements. To protect itself at close ranges, the AdderB has a pair of ER Medium Lasers. BV (1.0) = 1,176^[3], BV (2.0) = 1,422^[1][8]

Those loadouts wouldn't work very well in MWO.


Fox Alt A: Gauss on a light is impractical because lights are very tonnage limited and the Gauss is a heavy weapon. A CERPPC is a far better choice for lights. Also, ammo is 1 ton short of the gold standard in MWO (3 tons per GR).

Fox Alt B: ERSL will be suffer the same issues as the regular Small Laser versus the Medium Laser. SRMs are lackluster even when they register. The Ultra 10 won't have enough ammo to last more than a minute or two (you need 3 tons just for a regular AC/10).

Adder Alt A: Not even close to enough ammo for the LRMs. The launchers would have to get dropped down to 15's and the spare tonnage would have to be used on more ammo. Also, the Clan SPL probably won't be able to compare to the CERML.

Adder Alt B: The LB 5-X will suffer the same issues as the current LB 10-X does, i.e. spread damage too much to be worth the tonnage. The CUAC/5 will almost certainly be a far better weapon, although in the case of lights you probably don't want ballistics anyways due to their weight. The Large Pulse may or may not turn out to be decent, depending on how much PGI reduces it range (for the CERLL, for example, PGI only wants it to go 90 meters further than the IS ERLL).

Edited by FupDup, 09 April 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Gyrok]

You forget the weights of the CUACs:
CUAC2: 4T (1 crit)
CUAC5: 6T (4 crits)
CUAC10: 10T (6 crits)
CUAC20: 12T (8 crits)

CLBX2: 3T (1 crit)
CLBX5: 5T (4 crits)
CLBX10: 9T (6 crits)
CLBX20: 11T (8 crits)

So weight/space is FAR less an issue...additionally LBX5 will likely be a tight enough pattern to work very effectively.

Edited by Gyrok, 09 April 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

You forget the weights of the CUACs:
CUAC2: 4T (1 crit)
CUAC5: 6T (4 crits)
CUAC10: 10T (6 crits)
CUAC20: 12T (8 crits)

CLBX2: 3T (1 crit)
CLBX5: 5T (4 crits)
CLBX10: 9T (6 crits)
CLBX20: 11T (8 crits)

So weight/space is FAR less an issue...

Actually, the stats are:

CLB 2-X: 5 tons, 3 slots
CLB 5-X: 7 tons, 4 slots
CLB 10-X: 10 tons, 5 slots
CLB 20-X: 12 tons, 9 slots

CUAC/2: 5 tons, 2 slots
CUAC/5: 7 tons, 3 slots
CUAC/10: 10 tons, 4 slots
CUAC/20: 12 tons, 8 slots

http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists

Not to mention, energy weapons are still lighter in general. The CERPPC in particular might be allowed to deal its full 15 damage like TT, or even if it gets nerfed it still does more damage per ton than any Clan AC.

Edited by FupDup, 09 April 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Gyrok]

At the expense of horrendous heat. Do I like ERPPCs? Sure, but even I concede that they are not always the most practical weapon...(this coming from someone who has a Firebrand build that mocks the Rifleman 8X almost perfectly with 1.15 heat efficiency after 20 DHS, as well as several ERPPC toting lights). ACs allow you more SUSTAINED fire...which end up outperforming the energy weapons because the heat is so horrendous.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

At the expense of horrendous heat. Do I like ERPPCs? Sure, but even I concede that they are not always the most practical weapon...(this coming from someone who has a Firebrand build that mocks the Rifleman 8X almost perfectly with 1.15 heat efficiency after 20 DHS, as well as several ERPPC toting lights). ACs allow you more SUSTAINED fire...which end up outperforming the energy weapons because the heat is so horrendous.

Using the freed up tonnage on some DHS can help mitigate that. For the Kit Fox, swapping the Gauss and ammo (14 tons total) for an ERPPC (6 tons) would free up 8 tons to use on other things like more sinks.

Edited by FupDup, 09 April 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[Gyrok]

So what good is an ERPPC if it takes as much tonnage as an AC to be able to use it as effectively?

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

So what good is an ERPPC if it takes as much tonnage as an AC to be able to use it as effectively?

You probably won't need to use all 8 of the spare tons on extra sinks. I'd personally have maybe 3-4 extra sinks and then try to squeeze in a few SSRM racks to help deal with close quarters threats, and reserve the ERPPC for when my heat is low enough to allow it or for long range trolling.

Edited by FupDup, 09 April 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Am I the only one who will try the "stock" load-out?

[CyclonerM]

KuroNyra, on 09 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Am I the only one who will try the "stock" load-out?

Neg.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 09 April 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

You probably won't need to use all 8 of the spare tons on extra sinks. I'd personally have maybe 3-4 extra sinks and then try to squeeze in a few SSRM racks to help deal with close quarters threats, and reserve the ERPPC for when my heat is low enough to allow it or for long range trolling.

Agreed for 1 ER PPC, but still...by the time you add 4 heat sinks, it weighs as much as a CUAC10.

Additionally, my weight/slots came from source book, Sarna may not be entirely accurate there.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Agreed for 1 ER PPC, but still...by the time you add 4 heat sinks, it weighs as much as a CUAC10.

Additionally, my weight/slots came from source book, Sarna may not be entirely accurate there.

Which source book? I can also use mech building applications such as Solaris Skunk Works (SSW) to verify the weights, as well as previous MW games (well, not MW4 because they messed with tonnage in a few instances).

[Stormwolfe13]

Marack Drock, on 08 April 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

EVERYTHING NEEDS TO STAY CLOSE TO CANON AS POSSIBLE! NO FAKE BALANCING!

Why? Battletech is a turn based strategy game.... MWO is a Battlemech Simulator. Two very different game formats. Anyone who thinks that everything should be the same as battletech is being very short-sighted. In Battletech battle results are based primarily on random dice rolls while in MWO there is no random factor involved. Everything is determined by the players own piloting skill and marksmanship (except for the LRM fairies). A straight translation of Battletech into MWO has already proven nonviable on MANY MANY levels. If you want to play Battletech go see Mechwarrior: Tactics. MWO is NOT battletech and can NEVER be so.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 09 April 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Which source book? I can also use mech building applications such as Solaris Skunk Works (SSW) to verify the weights, as well as previous MW games (well, not MW4 because they messed with tonnage in a few instances).

At work at the moment...my memory may be slipping, but I am fairly certain my original numbers are accurate...

[ZnSeventeen]

FupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

The light class has literally only 1 advantage over the other classes: speed. That is all.

Let us break this down into code. If (mechClass == light) oneAdvantage = "speed";
It makes things so, so simple.
What is the one advantage mediums have over everyone else? Heavies? Assaults?

With that out of the way, you do forget a few other advantages; they are smaller and harder to hit and even harder to hit in specific locations, they tend to have higher turn rates regardless of speed, they move up inclines with greater ease, they are cheaper, and they cost less in terms of matchmaking.

[FupDup]

ZnSeventeen, on 09 April 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Let us break this down into code. If (mechClass == light) oneAdvantage = "speed";
It makes things so, so simple.
What is the one advantage mediums have over everyone else? Heavies? Assaults?

With that out of the way, you do forget a few other advantages; they are smaller and harder to hit and even harder to hit in specific locations, they tend to have higher turn rates regardless of speed, they move up inclines with greater ease, they are cheaper, and they cost less in terms of matchmaking.

Mediums have more firepower than lights and more speed than heavies. They are a "middleman" kind of class. Heavies have more firepower than mediums and more speed than assaults -- they are also a middleman. Assaults have the most armor and firepower but tend to be slow and and sometimes clumsy.

PS: The Clan Omni lights actually have very small engines, which means that their turning rates are exactly identical to the 55 ton Ryoken (which has a rather large engine). Being cheaper is not a tactical advantage. Convenient, yes, but not an advantage. It does not directly help you win a battle by spending less money than your opponent.

Edited by FupDup, 09 April 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Fup, how do you feel about pairing someting like a CUAC5 with a CERPPC? The ERPPC provides the big punch, while the UAC or LBX AC provide a low-heat DPS option.

I ask, because I've been running an ERLL, AC5 Raven for about a week or so now, and it's proving to be extremely effective. The low profile of the Raven, combined with the range synergy of the AC5/ERLL and the heat balance between the two is proving to be insanely good. For the sake of experimenting with clan lights, I've been running the XL210 in it and everything.

Why not do it on a medium? Mediums are too high profile. The Raven's strength is that it's incredibly hard to hit at 600m while behind cover. Mediums and heavies have a much larger profile, even something like the Blackjack or Jäger that specialize in peek shots. Add the extra firepower clan tech will afford, and you're looking at a serious monster.

Playing around with SSW, I can fit a UAC5, 3 tons of ammo, and an ERPPC on an Adder for -significantly- better heat efficency than a pair of ERPPCs.

[DONTOR]

FupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Wait a sec. I remember that they said you'd lose the lower arm actuators, but I don't recall them actually saying your arms would be LOCKED outright by it...did they? I would hope that it just does what no lower actuators do to Victors and Highlanders. Having armlock forced on all the time would suck popsickles.

Thought the YLW had its lower arm actuators removed, and it cant aim to the sides (it could go either way I guess)

Edited by DONTOR, 09 April 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 09 April 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Fup, how do you feel about pairing someting like a CUAC5 with a CERPPC? The ERPPC provides the big punch, while the UAC or LBX AC provide a low-heat DPS option.

I ask, because I've been running an ERLL, AC5 Raven for about a week or so now, and it's proving to be extremely effective. The low profile of the Raven, combined with the range synergy of the AC5/ERLL and the heat balance between the two is proving to be insanely good. For the sake of experimenting with clan lights, I've been running the XL210 in it and everything.

Why not do it on a medium? Mediums are too high profile. The Raven's strength is that it's incredibly hard to hit at 600m while behind cover. Mediums and heavies have a much larger profile, even something like the Blackjack or Jäger that specialize in peek shots. Add the extra firepower clan tech will afford, and you're looking at a serious monster.

Playing around with SSW, I can fit a UAC5, 3 tons of ammo, and an ERPPC on an Adder for -significantly- better heat efficency than a pair of ERPPCs.

That loadout seems good by Adder standards, and in general ballistics + energy make a good match. Although, I might roll with just 1 ERPPC (depending on if PGI lets it have its TT damage per shot), some ERML, and SSRMs for close defense...if I ever buy one that is.

About mediums...they have a bigger profile, but normally that isn't an issue for me. The acceleration/deceleration rates are adequate for peekwars, plus the high-mounted cannons on the Shad help quite a bit (and peeking around corners rather than over hills with the arms works too).

Edited by FupDup, 09 April 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[CyclonerM]

FupDup, on 09 April 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

PS: The Clan Omni lights actually have very small engines, which means that their turning rates are exactly identical to the 55 ton Ryoken (which has a rather large engine). Being cheaper is not a tactical advantage. Convenient, yes, but not an advantage. It does not directly help you win a battle by spending less money than your opponent.

Indeed. This works from a TT/strategic game point of view. In MWO it has little meaning sadly, but if you must pick some 'Mechs with a fixed amount of money, Two Kit Foxes would be 4 million c-bills cheaper than a Stormcrow. And you ould have 2 Gauss Rifles.. and two targets to split the enemy fire. For the same speed.

[KuroNyra]

CyclonerM, on 09 April 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Indeed. This works from a TT/strategic game point of view. In MWO it has little meaning sadly, but if you must pick some 'Mechs with a fixed amount of money, Two Kit Foxes would be 4 million c-bills cheaper than a Stormcrow. And you ould have 2 Gauss Rifles.. and two targets to split the enemy fire. For the same speed.

You forget one thing.

It isn't the same "class" factor in a Kit Fox and a StormCrow.
You can be good in both of them. But you will look cooler if you use a mech that have some class....

...

Bah what the heck, they are all class!
But still...

It could be...
>_>

Spoiler