9 replies to this topic

[John Wolf]

Ok, so I've been getting more and more games in, and I see the same poptart system used over and over and over into oblivion. People have nerfed weapons, mobility to mechs, etc but have not touched the core problem. This core problem is twofold in my opinion.

1. Almost all of the maps are designed to support this tactic/build/function. Small maps, lots of outcroppings to hide behind and 'tart over. For something with such a large scale.. the maps and games are all based on a poorly formed brawl layout. We can go into why this was done, or why its good or bad.. its just part of the problem.

2. Jumpjet physics need to be reviewed. This is where I believe the poptart problem exists, and needs to be corrected. Now, MWO isn't exactly a Sim and I can understand that, but I believe the problem starts and ends with the Jumpjet mechanics.

First, takeoff happens instantly and you start gaining altitude. Second, once you let go of the jets, you drop like an asteroid through the atmosphere. This is the first major issue. (increase hang time, reduce poptart threat) If a mech jumps up just high enough to clear its guns, fires.. by the time the rounds are out of the chamber the mech is already dropping out of sight. How come it has enough thrust to pull away from the planet, but is clearly so heavy that without thrust the mech drops instantly? If you have a jumping mech have more time in the top arch, the poptart mechanic becomes just as much risk to the jumper than the target downrange. Its no longer visibility for 2 seconds max, its hangtime that the pilot needs to be aware they're going to be taking fire while they're hanging up there.

Second, that instant lift and drop is killing netcode hit detection. Mechs move faster vertically than they do on the run, and just the release of the jets is enough to make jumping a major evasive action. How many light mechs do you see running around tapping the jump button to take advantage of the instant hops and drops while on the run, plus the bonus of their hitbox mobility. I can have a highlander lined up in the air, but once they release the jumpjets they're already several meters in freefall.

Forget the weapon tweaks, forget trying to change the damage numbers to correct this problem. Take a look at what causes it to begin with. Jumpjet mechanics.

Increase the hang time of mechs in the air, you already tried to address this with the 'forward momentum' tweak but that didn't resolve it. Perhaps you didn't go far enough with it.

Either way, share your thoughts on the topic but I think it clearly needs to be looked at. If you increase the hangtime at the top end of jumps, you put the poptarts at risk longer which I believe would reduce the overuse of that tactic.

Thanks everyone who chooses to reply for your input,

John

[OneEyed Jack]

Why does 20 tons, minimum, rapidly begin to fall when in the air without lift??? Are you seriously suggesting it should freaking hover there so your slow arse can get a shot off?

[John Wolf]

Very constructive Jack.

Tell me why it has enough thrust to break gravity but its clearly JUST BARELY enough to keep it climbing so once the jets cut out its already in freefall.

[Veranova]

Because thrust...
With enough thrust a 1 million ton vehicle could launch like a Jet.

Recent JJ nerfs have been good.
Climbing is slowed, recharge is WAY slowed.
Poptarting is still possible, but less effective and harder.

Poptarts DPS has been slowed drastically, and Victors/Highlanders feel like big 'mechs now.

It's fine. Poptarting is a play style, not a problem.
Brawling is back in the game for those who want to work with their teams to do it.

[Felbombling]

If the devs want to snuff out jump sniping for good, they need to come to the realization that the 'coolness' of being able to shoot weapons while in midair is ruining their game. Just turn all the weapons red the moment a Mech becomes airborne and give jump capable Mechs greater distance and height per jump jet equipped. Make the advantage of having and using jump jets the increased tactical mobility, not the ability to mount one jump jet to pop up and down every few seconds all game long.

I find it really hard not to take advantage of the jump jets on my 3D and Dragon Slayer and join in with the pop-tarts, in all honesty. It is such an obviously useful and safe tactic that I would be a fool not to do it. And in setting up for the tactic, one comes to the quick realization that two jump jets are all that is needed. I honestly don't understand why PGI are ok with that.

Many will not agree with me on this, but I'd welcome more mobility per jump jet mounted over the ability to fire while airborne.

[LegoPirate]

mechs crawl upwards at like 5-10kph or something. thats really not alot of momentum to keep it going.

5 kph is roughly 2 meters per second (rounded up, mind you). meaning that there should be less then .25 seconds of upward motion after the thrust is released (assuming standard 1.0g, the devs have stated that gravity doesnt actually change even if the description says its diff). even if it was like 10 kph, that would still mean less then half a second of hang time, which is roughly where we are at now.

for the 1+ seconds of hang time, youd need to be going 20+ kph in the vertical direction, which im pretty sure would be much much faster then they currently ascend at. not to mention it would reduce the amount of time one has to twist before the poptarter clears cover and can shoot. aka they will blast you in the ct every time.

aka, the math doesnt support you, ggclose

Edited by LegoPirate, 05 April 2014 - 04:46 PM.

[Wildstreak]

#1 cannot be helped, map design is what it is for more reasons than JJs.

#2 would require an overall in depth review of each jumping Mech by weight and # of JJs. Don't know if anyone got into something that detailed, I don't have anywhere near enough Mechs to compare or time.

In simpler terms though I can say this.

Let's compare Mechs with say 5 JJs max ignoring those with higher limits.
All Jenners except the Oxide, 35 tons
Raven-4X, 35 tons
Trebuchet-5J and -7M, 50 tons
Shadow Hawk-5M, 55 tons
Quickdraw-4H and -5K, 60 tons
Heavy Metal, 90 tons

Of these, I would expect the most 'hang time' on the 35 tonners while the Heavy Metal is the fastest to drop once the pilot stops using jets for ascending. Then you would have to adjust physics on each using less jets, fewer jets means less hang time.

Of these, the HM and maybe the Hawk would be poptarters so giving more hang time actually affects non-poptarters more than the ones people complain about.

Personally, I think the way to go is figuring out how to make Brawling desirable.

[Cyborne Elemental]

If it were me, I would just change how aiming works when in flight.

If crosshair wobble was present the entire time during flight except for that small window at the peak of your flight, that could make skill and timing much more important.

Narrowing that window to be smaller, the heavier the mech is would also be important, because you don't need to hit lights/mediums so hard with a change like that. Assaults & heavies are the only mechs doing this 35/40 dmg META crap, thats where the focus needs to be.

Just as example, as soon as you're thrusting, your crosshair wobble starts to ramp up to its maximum, once you stop thrusting your crosshairs start to slowly re-center, just past the peak of your jump you get about 1/4 second where crosshairs are dead on, and on your descent your crosshairs start to slowly buildup wobble until you hit the ground.

It could balance things out differently without having to do further nerfs on JJ's, as only the mechs with their full jets will have the hang time to recalibrate their crosshairs/convergence for that 1 shot, mechs will have to overcompensate their jump to get a shot off, exposing themselves a little longer.

In all honestly, I still say its an issue with the weapons involved, and not necessarily as much about the dynamics of flight.

Try poptarting with ERLL instead of PPC's, and you'll find that the skill required to put all your damage on target goes way way up.

Its still about the PPC and AC5/UAC5/gauss's ability to put all their potential damage in a single spot all at once.

If PPC's/AC's did splash, say 75% on target, 25% splash to connected armor sections instead of full 100% damage with pinpoint accuracy we wouldn't be having these balance problems.

That, or start bringing up some smart ways to work convergence into the discussion.

Edited by Mister D, 06 April 2014 - 12:59 AM.

[Wildstreak]

While testing something else, I decided to test Jump Jets using the Trial Jenner & Victor plus a Griffin with 7 JJs.

Note #1 - not sure if this is a change, never noticed. When using JJs from a position of no movement, there is a small amount of forward momentum.

Note #2 - not sure if this is a change, never noticed. The heavier the Mech, the longer it takes the JJ tank to refill.

Note #3 - In the Victor, if I empty the tank on upward thrust leaving nothing to use when descending, I take NO damage.
In the Jenner & Griffin, when I empty the tank going up, I take leg damage upon touchdown.
Compare that to if I use anything less than the whole tank (even leaving a smidgen of JJ fuel) then waste what is left going down, I take NO DAMAGE.

Definitely something wrong with the Note #3 results. I would expect the Victor to have taken damage, it does not go as high but the larger mass should result in leg damage on touchdown if the tank is exhausted much like the other two. Plus the ability to leave just a tiny bit of JJ fuel to prevent leg damage seems silly.

I do not have a JJ capable Heavy Mech to try and see the results for Note #3.

[General Taskeen]

All I want is for 5 jumpjets on a Jenner to actually propel it forward very fast 150m, not to fire at something persay, but for quick/sudden evasion.

As is now, you have to be at full speed then jump and hover forward 20 maybe 50m = lame.