795 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Mystere, are you saying that you have seen "Many" players express they don't want to play in an enviroment where they have a disadvantage (notwithstanding that the information they use to assess that is not specific to the question). That they actually log out of a game where they perceive they are facing a team with advantages?

Cause this thread is about how Team players can play in an environment with in game advantages.

I wonder if PGI should be concerned about this apparent mis match and it's impact on players of both sides?

No, he's saying there's dbags who disconnect because they don't like a map, they'll do the same thing for any reason they see as something that might make it more challenging to win.

[Craig Steele]

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

No, he's saying there's dbags who disconnect because they don't like a map, they'll do the same thing for any reason they see as something that might make it more challenging to win.

Oh, OK.

I read this (My extension of bold, underline and italics from original post)

Mystere, on 11 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

You did not get my point which is ...

Many people will quit even before the match starts if they think they are on the losing side of a premade or weight disparity. That is the very reason why premades are not tagged and why the enemy mech composition is not disclosed.

and thought maybe those people Mystere was identifying might not appreciate playing against teams of 5 - 11 either?

I mean if they log off seeing 4 Marik badges, imagine what they will do if they see 7?

Then what will we see in Forums?

[Mystere]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Mystere, are you saying that you have seen "Many" players express they don't want to play in an enviroment where they have a disadvantage (notwithstanding that the information they use to assess that is not specific to the question). That they actually log out of a game where they perceive they are facing a team with advantages?

Cause this thread is about how Team players can play in an environment with in game advantages.

I wonder if PGI should be concerned about this apparent mis match and it's impact on players of both sides?

Mystere, on 11 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Those same players probably did not even know that the enemy team is listed in alphabetical order.

Enlarged for emphasis to prevent you from missing very pertinent information.

Or should we allow people to quit a match even before it starts, thus depriving their team mates of what could have been a good game?

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Then what will we see in Forums?

Proof that the human race is probably not worth saving and thus just allow it to go extinct, 3050 or otherwise.

Edited by Mystere, 11 April 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Mystere, on 11 April 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Enlarged for emphasis to prevent you from missing very pertinent information.

Or should we allow people to quit a match even before it starts, thus depriving their team mates what could have been a good game?

I can read just fine

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Mystere, are you saying that you have seen "Many" players express they don't want to play in an enviroment where they have a disadvantage (notwithstanding that the information they use to assess that is not specific to the question). That they actually log out of a game where they perceive they are facing a team with advantages?

Cause this thread is about how Team players can play in an environment with in game advantages.

I wonder if PGI should be concerned about this apparent mis match and it's impact on players of both sides?

My point is that this thread is about how team players can game the system to have teams of 5 - 11 playing against PUG's because it suits them, and you are saying that PUG's perceive teams of 4 as sufficient basis to d/c (not withstanding the basis for their perception is not specfic to the question)

Ergo, Those players attempting to "game" the system should probably be aware that their opposition have some thoughts as well and if your example holds true, they may even DC when they see all those Marik (or whichever) badges.

[Sandpit]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Oh, OK.

I read this (My extension of bold, underline and italics from original post)



and thought maybe those people Mystere was identifying might not appreciate playing against teams of 5 - 11 either?

I mean if they log off seeing 4 Marik badges, imagine what they will do if they see 7?

Then what will we see in Forums?

So?

It's no different than players who disco because they don't like a map, or are farming, or any other number of reasons. This game needs to stop catering to players like that.

You'll see exactly what you see now on the forums. "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Premades touched me! They're ruining the game! They're the reason I lost" after 2 of their teammates discoed, 3 ran off alone to die early on playing recklessly, and leaving the remaining 7 to face off against 10 fresh mechs wondering why they lost. What's the difference?

When what you SHOULD see is "Hey, I ran into this situation in a match, we got stomped, how can I improve my chances of winning?"

Keep in mind I'm not attacking you, just explaining why some of us are less than sympathetic at this point. We're tired of this game catering to and being dumbed down for the lowest common denominators. I can't team up with my buddies because some can't figure out that going full rambo and not using tactics, strategy, and intelligence is NOT how you're going to win this game.

[Daekar]

What on Luthien does this have to do with exploiting 3-3-3-3?

What is there really to say about it: jerks will try to arrange pugstomping sessions using whatever mechanics they can, despite the fact that group sizes larger than 4 have been determined to be forbidden by the devs. There's really not much the devs can do about it, so a few jerks will ruin things for a lot of people.

Sounds like a good reason to play single-player games, because you can't stop people from being selfish jerks. That's their parents' job.

[Roadbeer]

Daekar, on 11 April 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

What on Luthien does this have to do with exploiting 3-3-3-3?

What is there really to say about it: jerks will try to arrange pugstomping sessions using whatever mechanics they can, despite the fact that group sizes larger than 4 have been determined to be forbidden by the devs. There's really not much the devs can do about it, so a few jerks will ruin things for a lot of people.

Sounds like a good reason to play single-player games, because you can't stop people from being selfish jerks. That's their parents' job.

Or, from another perspective, if the game developers would stop pandering to the perpetually anti-social, we wouldn't need to exploit a system just so we're able to play with our friends.

A feature, I might add, existed and was working just fine, before the perpetually anti-social QQed that "teamwork was OP and MUST be nerfed"

[Craig Steele]

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

So?

It's no different than players who disco because they don't like a map, or are farming, or any other number of reasons. This game needs to stop catering to players like that.

You'll see exactly what you see now on the forums. "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Premades touched me! They're ruining the game! They're the reason I lost" after 2 of their teammates discoed, 3 ran off alone to die early on playing recklessly, and leaving the remaining 7 to face off against 10 fresh mechs wondering why they lost. What's the difference?

When what you SHOULD see is "Hey, I ran into this situation in a match, we got stomped, how can I improve my chances of winning?"

Keep in mind I'm not attacking you, just explaining why some of us are less than sympathetic at this point. We're tired of this game catering to and being dumbed down for the lowest common denominators. I can't team up with my buddies because some can't figure out that going full rambo and not using tactics, strategy, and intelligence is NOT how you're going to win this game.

lol, I'm not defensive, all good. But if you call me nasty names I'll reconsider jk,

I suspect what we will also see on Forums is "team players" complaining about no competition and both sides complaining about how boring the Stomps are.

The problem with your "Hey how can I get better" analysis is that they cannot. They know that while they are SOLO PUGging (which is a choice they make) they will never have the advantages of comms, synchronised load outs and familiarity that Pre made teams enjoy. It doesn't matter how good they are, if MM puts them up against an equally skilled opponent that has those advantages they will more often than not lose.

The only realistic answer to be "competitive" is for them to join a team which they quite clearly do not want to do. Mystere here is a classis example. Been playing for ages and a proud solo PUGger, why should he HAVE to join a team to be competitive? Why should team players be forcing that decision on him?

It's not that team players can't play, the Launch module will enable exactly that. This thread is that team players not only want to play, they want to play in an environment where they enjoy an advantage and get rewarded for it (ie, the PUG queue).

Team players (5 - 11) want more than what PGI is offering them with this module and until they get it they are (according to this thread) going to screw over PUG's and then tell them it's all their fault they didn't join a team.

The obvious answer is a seperate queue for team players but on face value (PGI's stats) there isn't enough population to support Team Player queues, so they instead focus their resources on CW (or whatever FoTM excuse they have)

[Craig Steele]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

A feature, I might add, existed and was working just fine, before the perpetually anti-social QQed that "teamwork was OP and MUST be nerfed"

My question would be is that if it was "working just fine" for all players why did anyone QQ about it?

[Sandpit]

The devs can stop trying to lock down the game in certain aspects because of potential exploits. This isn't the first PvP MMO in the history of gaming. It's not like they don't have hundreds of examples to pull from and help them decide how to limit that kind of exploitation.

It's going to be easy to abuse because of several factors.

Ok CW:
You can only drop with players on your "side" so it's not like now where you just randomly drop with players in other factions. The limits the overall player pool to start with.
With that in mind, Marik does Monday Madness where we all get in a drop bay (there's well over 20 that participate on a regular basis) and we are pretty successful now at getting into the same games as our buddies.
Example:
Now: Player pool 1000 means there's 1000 players hitting launch and getting thrown together by MM.
CW: Player Pool 100 means there's only 100 players hitting launch that are allowed to drop on your team.
If we can sync drop successfully now do you think it's going to be harder or easier to sync drop when the overall pool is smaller? That completely defeats the idea and purpose of limiting group sizes to begin with.

On top of that, you make one premade and then have 15 others sync drop alongside that premade. Then just join a TS channel with everyone who makes it in. Instant premade.

Then you add in the fact that Elo averages all players in the premade and it makes it even easier to game the system. I'm not a great medium pilot. That means my Elo in mediums is much lower than my heavies and assaults. So when my team needs an Elo sink to bring our overall Elo down as a group all I ahve to do is drop in a medium that I can do well in.

Then you think about the fact that mercs have to be able to drop in specific ways to fulfill contractual obligations and it gets even worse. What many of us are saying is that PGI made this decision to "fix" certain issues that are currently plaguing some. The problem is that it doesn't fix any of those problems, it actually makes it easier to game that system.

[Roadbeer]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

My question would be is that if it was "working just fine" for all players why did anyone QQ about it?

As I said, the perpetually anti-social cried that "Teamwork was OP". And that those who played Farmville should have stuck with Farmville

Man I tire of repeating myself with you.

[Craig Steele]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

As I said, the perpetually anti-social cried that "Teamwork was OP". And that those who played Farmville should have stuck with Farmville

Man I tire of repeating myself with you.

It was a redundant question.

It might have been "working just fine" for you, but it clearly wasn't for some because they "complained" about it as you paint the picture.

[Roadbeer]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

It was a redundant question.

It might have been "working just fine" for you, but it clearly wasn't for some because they "complained" about it as you paint the picture.

But, if the majority of players were in groups, who cares about the solo player? Especially in a "Team based" thinking mans shooter

Sound familiar?

Edited by Roadbeer, 11 April 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Mystere]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

Mystere here is a classis example. Been playing for ages and a proud solo PUGger, why should he HAVE to join a team to be competitive? Why should team players be forcing that decision on him?

Psst! I think I am the worst example to use to bolster your argument.

[Sandpit]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

It's not that team players can't play, the Launch module will enable exactly that. This thread is that team players not only want to play, they want to play in an environment where they enjoy an advantage and get rewarded for it (ie, the PUG queue).

Team players (5 - 11) want more than what PGI is offering them with this module and until they get it they are (according to this thread) going to screw over PUG's and then tell them it's all their fault they didn't join a team.

The obvious answer is a seperate queue for team players but on face value (PGI's stats) there isn't enough population to support Team Player queues, so they instead focus their resources on CW (or whatever FoTM excuse they have)

No, we want to play in 5-11, participate in CW, earn cbills and exp, and just enjoy the game. I don't care HOW they do that. There's no ulterior motive.

Now what I HAVE said is that I'm going to go out of my way to game this launch module just to help show PGI that they didn't fix anything. If that means some PUGs get stomped in the process I apologize in advance but I've gotten to the point where my sympathy is all out. I'm no longer concerned about preserving their game experience. I'm more concerned with MY game experience. I'm tired of hearing about how premades and such are ruining the game, roflstomping, etc.
Instead of blaming things like that, they need to look at how new players are thrown into matches with vetrs and customized mechs, the Elo system is jacked because of the way it averages a group's Elo, their own tactics, strategies, play style, etc. and STOP preventing myself and others like me from just playing the game with people we enjoy playing alongside of.

If they want to do separate queues that's fine with me. I personally don't think it will solve the roflstomps but hey, at least I don't have to listen to people whine and QQ about how premades touched them in their naighty spots and scream stranger danger every time they see a premade in game.

You will never eliminate roflstomps. They shouldn't be eliminated. Sometimes you just simply get outplayed and outclassed. That's any competitive game. You CAN mitigate it though and, more importantly, protect new players from going through a gauntlet of them until they've gotten the hang of things. Premades aren't he root cause of that though. They really need to give new players their own queue and let them drop against other cadets while they're learning and before they get their own customized mech.

Another thing that might help is introducing some sort of tier system as opposed to the rule of 3. Players start in a light mech and go from there. Implementing a "level" system like that would give players something to follow and earn their way up to piloting an assault mech. I don't personally love this idea but I DO think it would help. A new player that hasn't even learned to target enemy mechs has no business running around in an Atlas, taking that team's very few assault slots and losing planetary territory to other factions.

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

My question would be is that if it was "working just fine" for all players why did anyone QQ about it?

The same reason players QQ every single patch any time something is adjusted.

[111DOA111]

If they added in game voip ...
-could/would that not alleviate "the stomping"....
-and turn every team in to a OPness of teamwork...
-bring the community closer together...(yes there will be some NOT on board using it..for whatever reason..)...
-also would it not make restricting groups of friends with more then 4 obsolete..as now the whole other team is/should/could/now have the ability... to work in concert with each other much easier and much more effective (then trying to type frantically while getting your arse blasted away)
- I'm sure there is WAY more things...too tired to think anymore.

[Mystere]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

It might have been "working just fine" for you, but it clearly wasn't for some because they "complained" about it as you paint the picture.

Instead of complaining, I wish many of my fellow puggers would instead cultivez quelques boules.

[Roadbeer]

111DOA111, on 11 April 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

If they added in game voip ...
-could/would that not alleviate "the stomping"....
-and turn every team in to a OPness of teamwork...
-bring the community closer together...(yes there will be some NOT on board using it..for whatever reason..)...
-also would it not make restricting groups of friends with more then 4 obsolete..as now the whole other team is/should/could/now have the ability... to work in concert with each other much easier and much more effective (then trying to type frantically while getting your arse blasted away)
- I'm sure there is WAY more things...too tired to think anymore.

No, because most of the organized units would remain on their TS servers and disable universal VoIP anyway because
1. Nobody wants to hear "Angry German Kid"
2. Nobody wants to hear (whatever the current culturally relevant reference would be to hearing GWAR come out of their speakers)
4. See 1.
3. "Hey guise, my cats breath smells like cat food.

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

No, because most of the organized units would remain on their TS servers and disable universal VoIP anyway because
1. Nobody wants to hear "Angry German Kid"
2. Nobody wants to hear (whatever the current culturally relevant reference would be to hearing GWAR come out of their speakers)
4. See 1.
3. "Hey guise, my cats breath smells like cat food.

yup

not to mention, after two years of having to do it ourselves I really think, what's the point now? It would be nice for the PUGs but most of your premades are just going to stick to their TS servers. We're creatures of habit and why would I go through the trouble of using voip in game now when I've got perfectly good TS servers to use instead that I've set up, have working properly, control who I listen to, etc.

[Craig Steele]

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

The devs can stop trying to lock down the game in certain aspects because of potential exploits. This isn't the first PvP MMO in the history of gaming. It's not like they don't have hundreds of examples to pull from and help them decide how to limit that kind of exploitation.

It's going to be easy to abuse because of several factors.

Ok CW:
You can only drop with players on your "side" so it's not like now where you just randomly drop with players in other factions. The limits the overall player pool to start with.
With that in mind, Marik does Monday Madness where we all get in a drop bay (there's well over 20 that participate on a regular basis) and we are pretty successful now at getting into the same games as our buddies.
Example:
Now: Player pool 1000 means there's 1000 players hitting launch and getting thrown together by MM.
CW: Player Pool 100 means there's only 100 players hitting launch that are allowed to drop on your team.
If we can sync drop successfully now do you think it's going to be harder or easier to sync drop when the overall pool is smaller? That completely defeats the idea and purpose of limiting group sizes to begin with.

On top of that, you make one premade and then have 15 others sync drop alongside that premade. Then just join a TS channel with everyone who makes it in. Instant premade.

Then you add in the fact that Elo averages all players in the premade and it makes it even easier to game the system. I'm not a great medium pilot. That means my Elo in mediums is much lower than my heavies and assaults. So when my team needs an Elo sink to bring our overall Elo down as a group all I ahve to do is drop in a medium that I can do well in.

Then you think about the fact that mercs have to be able to drop in specific ways to fulfill contractual obligations and it gets even worse. What many of us are saying is that PGI made this decision to "fix" certain issues that are currently plaguing some. The problem is that it doesn't fix any of those problems, it actually makes it easier to game that system.

CW or LM? I'll read LM cause your context reads that way

Yes, Bigger groups (like Marik) will certainly have a higher proportion of players in a match cause the system will be "easier" to game with more parameters known to the payers. If your trying to sych 12 your chances are remote in the extreme, but trying to fit 12 out of 100+, sure chances are good you'll get a higher ratio in.

Then what.

Opposition sees 8/9/10? Marik badges across the board.

According to Mystere some will DC straight away, they can't be stuffed.

Even if they don't, it's a lop sided match and the Mariks Stomp all over them (because they do actually enjoy all the advantages of teamwork), C-Bills, high fives and gg's all round.

Then check forums

"Pre mades are stomping the queues, I'm out, this game sucks"
"Learn to play noob, bye"
"c ya, can I hav ur stuffz"

Or alternativily

"This game sucks, I can't find a match, MM takes so long"
"This games dead, no one plays anymore"
"PGI ruined this game"

And the circle keeps spinning around.

I am not trying to suggest that there is any specific motivation (I freely posted before that there are extremes and most people will be in between those extremes) but the fact is and remains, Pre made teams of 5 - 11 want to play the game with all the advantages of teamwork against an opposition that does not have the same advantages and get rewarded for it.

That is the point of this thread.