27 replies to this topic

[Silentium]

I was thinking about this earlier, and I have seen some speculation that it will be like the command console (a paperweight). What might you guys like to see the T-comp do?

I think it might be cool if it worked like a space sim targeting reticule, like was present in freelancer; basically, there would be a pip in front of a targeted enemy that leads the target based on current course and speed. Of course, that might be kind of OP.......

[Appogee]

Console crowd would love it. And as long as it costs them 3 tons I'd have no problem with them having it.

[Hans Von Lohman]

It has been talked about before.

Pretty much everyone agrees that a Targeting computer will provide a lead computing gunsight for deflection shooting. I personally like the idea of a lag gunsight crosshair rather than a floating aim point ahead of your enemy. The idea is to get the player's eyes to look at the crosshair lagging to the left of his center screen instead of at a hollow aimpoint floating to the right of the target. Both get you the correct offset to hit him, but the lag crosshairs also mean you are looking at the enemy underneath it and can put your shots into specific body parts rather than having your eyes focusing on an abstract aim circle or diamond ahead of the enemy.

Also, in the table top game the TC would be useful for lasers as well as guns, but not for missiles. In MWO lasers are true lasers and don't need any lead. However, SRM missiles are unguided in MWO. For me that means a TC should not have anything to do with lasers, and will work with autocannons, PPC's, and SRM missiles.

As for selecting what weapon, well just take that off your weapon grouping list on the lower right of your screen. Whatever weapon you have currently lit up is what gets used, and just use your up and down arrow keys to highlight a different weapon to get a different aimpoint calculation.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Appogee, on 06 April 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Console crowd would love it. And as long as it costs them 3 tons I'd have no problem with them having it.

The targeting computer is actually a different weight depending on your weapon loadout.

For now the Clans have Targeting computers, but the Inner Sphere will make a copy some years later.

The math equation is this: Weight of the weapons, devided by 5, rounded up. Also, it occupies 1 slot for each ton it weighs, so a 2 ton targeting computer will also take up 2 slots on your mech.

So if you run a mech with one AC-20, and a pair of large lasers in MWO, you will have a 3 ton targeting computer. It is based solely on the weight of the AC-20 (which is 12 tons if you forget). That is 2.4, rounded up to 3. Since lasers wouldn't benefit from it I don't count them.

[Kilo 40]

targeting computer???


pffft....I switch mine off and just trust my feelings.

[Silentium]

Hans Von Lohman, on 07 April 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

It has been talked about before.

Pretty much everyone agrees that a Targeting computer will provide a lead computing gunsight for deflection shooting. I personally like the idea of a lag gunsight crosshair rather than a floating aim point ahead of your enemy. The idea is to get the player's eyes to look at the crosshair lagging to the left of his center screen instead of at a hollow aimpoint floating to the right of the target. Both get you the correct offset to hit him, but the lag crosshairs also mean you are looking at the enemy underneath it and can put your shots into specific body parts rather than having your eyes focusing on an abstract aim circle or diamond ahead of the enemy.

Also, in the table top game the TC would be useful for lasers as well as guns, but not for missiles. In MWO lasers are true lasers and don't need any lead. However, SRM missiles are unguided in MWO. For me that means a TC should not have anything to do with lasers, and will work with autocannons, PPC's, and SRM missiles.

As for selecting what weapon, well just take that off your weapon grouping list on the lower right of your screen. Whatever weapon you have currently lit up is what gets used, and just use your up and down arrow keys to highlight a different weapon to get a different aimpoint calculation.

Thanks Hans, I think a lag sight would be cool too. I thought about different projectile speeds later, but I think the weapon selection piece would wrap that up niceley; mixed weapon groups might be an issue though...

[Karl Streiger]

Hm not sure if it this lead to target indicator is any help... when i look at those "bullet" speeds....the lead indicator must be close to the target.... you won't hit a Spider or a Jenner with this indicator better -

the only advantage this indicator will have - comes in comparison with the "advanced" targeting module - because i can't loose the feeling, that the increased zoom won't transform the - range and speed of the target - resulting in a lot of missed shots. Reason i always turn- advanced zoom off - when shooting at moving targets....

Question - are 5 to 6t of equipment worth the gain of such a device? A "lock on" would be more intersting - lock on to target - bring the weapons into a "circle" around the target - hit fire - and your guns fly straight at the designated location. (would be great - simple because the ECM will now be a counter measure for direct fire weapons - *giggels

[Mawai]

Hans Von Lohman, on 07 April 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

It has been talked about before.

Pretty much everyone agrees that a Targeting computer will provide a lead computing gunsight for deflection shooting. I personally like the idea of a lag gunsight crosshair rather than a floating aim point ahead of your enemy. The idea is to get the player's eyes to look at the crosshair lagging to the left of his center screen instead of at a hollow aimpoint floating to the right of the target. Both get you the correct offset to hit him, but the lag crosshairs also mean you are looking at the enemy underneath it and can put your shots into specific body parts rather than having your eyes focusing on an abstract aim circle or diamond ahead of the enemy.

Also, in the table top game the TC would be useful for lasers as well as guns, but not for missiles. In MWO lasers are true lasers and don't need any lead. However, SRM missiles are unguided in MWO. For me that means a TC should not have anything to do with lasers, and will work with autocannons, PPC's, and SRM missiles.

As for selecting what weapon, well just take that off your weapon grouping list on the lower right of your screen. Whatever weapon you have currently lit up is what gets used, and just use your up and down arrow keys to highlight a different weapon to get a different aimpoint calculation.

The problem with a leading weapon cross hairs in MWO is that the weapons converge on the point of aim ... wherever you are aiming. So in this case the weapons will converge on the background behind the aiming crosshairs.

In addition, the cross hair location would need to be different for each "ballistic" weapon system since they each have a different travel time giving a different aiming point - though as you said it might be possible to choose one.

On top of that, I don't think PGI has the development resources for a feature like this ... though as long as folks could accept the aiming point as non-authoritative it could be done client side (meaning that if you aimed at this estimated spot there is no guarantee that the mech will be there even if you aim at it and the target does appear to move into it).

[Bobzilla]

Mawai, on 07 April 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

The problem with a leading weapon cross hairs in MWO is that the weapons converge on the point of aim ... wherever you are aiming. So in this case the weapons will converge on the background behind the aiming crosshairs.

In addition, the cross hair location would need to be different for each "ballistic" weapon system since they each have a different travel time giving a different aiming point - though as you said it might be possible to choose one.

On top of that, I don't think PGI has the development resources for a feature like this ... though as long as folks could accept the aiming point as non-authoritative it could be done client side (meaning that if you aimed at this estimated spot there is no guarantee that the mech will be there even if you aim at it and the target does appear to move into it).

I don't know if i'd trust putting a aim-bot client side. Which is basically what this would be.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Mawai, on 07 April 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

The problem with a leading weapon cross hairs in MWO is that the weapons converge on the point of aim ... wherever you are aiming. So in this case the weapons will converge on the background behind the aiming crosshairs.

That is also the case right now, so nothing is going to change. You still have to lead a target manually with a pair of PPC's or SRM's in a mech's arms or such. At least with a TC installed you get an increased chance to actually hit the guy.

It isn't as big a deal since I think most SRM's or Autocannons on mechs are mounted in the same body location. Not always, but most of them are that way.

Quote

In addition, the cross hair location would need to be different for each "ballistic" weapon system since they each have a different travel time giving a different aiming point - though as you said it might be possible to choose one.

I actually mentioned that before. That is why my post included a bit about having your TC crosshair be based on the weapon you currently have selected in the lower right of your screen, on the weapon grouping panel. If you have SRM's and an AC-2, then to get the aiming you want you just use arrow keys up or down to the AC-2 you get the offset for that weapon, but if you go to the SRM's you get that calculation. You won't get both.

Quote

On top of that, I don't think PGI has the development resources for a feature like this ... though as long as folks could accept the aiming point as non-authoritative it could be done client side (meaning that if you aimed at this estimated spot there is no guarantee that the mech will be there even if you aim at it and the target does appear to move into it).

Not sure what you mean by this, but the math for getting a lead computing gunsight isn't that hard. It's just high school geometry to be fair. I have to seriously disagree that it would be hard. Gunsights like this have been in video games since the 90's, and predate even 3D graphics cards.

As for internet lag, again nothing is changing. It's just a way to aim, but you have to do that now by gut instinct. This doesn't do anything new.

[RavensScar]

Hans Von Lohman, on 07 April 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

The targeting computer is actually a different weight depending on your weapon loadout.

For now the Clans have Targeting computers, but the Inner Sphere will make a copy some years later.

The math equation is this: Weight of the weapons, devided by 5, rounded up. Also, it occupies 1 slot for each ton it weighs, so a 2 ton targeting computer will also take up 2 slots on your mech.

So if you run a mech with one AC-20, and a pair of large lasers in MWO, you will have a 3 ton targeting computer. It is based solely on the weight of the AC-20 (which is 12 tons if you forget). That is 2.4, rounded up to 3. Since lasers wouldn't benefit from it I don't count them.

Ouch, a piece of kit that changes weight depending on what else you have on your mech? That's going to make building your mech a real pain.

From a in-game point of view, it would make some sense for it to function like Artemis where it adds weight onto the weapons (ie. with a TC equipped, an AC20 now weighs 15 tons - 12 for the weapon, plus 3 for the TC) but you still have to work with the TC itself changing the number of slots it occupies.

[FupDup]

If the Targeting Computer gave you a second reticule that told you how far to lead your shots, it would be a crutch piece of equipment for bad pilots. People who are decent/good at the game would have no reason to use it whatsoever.

[Strum Wealh]

Silentium, on 06 April 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

I was thinking about this earlier, and I have seen some speculation that it will be like the command console (a paperweight). What might you guys like to see the T-comp do?

I think it might be cool if it worked like a space sim targeting reticule, like was present in freelancer; basically, there would be a pip in front of a targeted enemy that leads the target based on current course and speed. Of course, that might be kind of OP.......

One possible idea is to have the TC provide the same type of functionality as seen in MechWarrior 3.
"Targeting Computer: A valuable unit, allowing you to target specific body locations, and provides an aiming circle to help target moving enemies. Especially useful for ballistic and long range missile weapons, it's value to energy based attacks is less. Lasers reach the target almost instantly, so there is no need to lead a moving target. Machine guns, too, with their limited range and fast projectiles usually do not require additional support for aiming and firing. It's effectiveness is severely limited by the use of the ECM suite, rendering the aiming circle choppy and unstable."

Additionally/alternatively, one could look at what the TC does in BattleTech canon/lore, and extrapolate from there:

• "A warrior can use a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an active target. If using a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an immobile target, the player adds a –1 modifier (representing the targeting computer) to the –4 immobile target modifier." (Total Warfare, pg. 110)
  
• "DE/DB: Direct-Fire Energy or Ballistic Weapon. These weapon types (except flamers and machine guns) can use a targeting computer when making attacks." (Total Warfare, pg. 113)
  
• "P: Pulse Weapon. Apply a –2 to-hit modifier to all weapon attacks. This weapon type can use a targeting computer when making attacks, except for aimed shots." (Total Warfare, pg. 113)
  
• "Rapid-fire weapons can use a targeting computer when making attacks, but cannot use the targeting computer to make an aimed shot if firing more than one shot in a turn." (Total Warfare, pg. 113)
  
• "The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers." (Total Warfare, pg. 134)
  
• "When firing cluster munitions, LB-X autocannons cannot make aimed shots, and they also lose the benefits of the firing unit’s targeting computer." (Total Warfare, pg. 141)
  
• "An attacker cannot target a ’Mech’s head when making an aimed shot with a targeting computer." (Total Warfare, pg. 143)
  
• "ProtoMechs are so small that targeting computers cannot be used to make attacks against specific hit locations." (Total Warfare, pg. 185)
  
• "More than just a basic sensor tracking and targeting array, the targeting computer actually helps its gunner aim physically. This is accomplished through a series of recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers that combine to counter much of the routine weapon drift caused by the shooter’s own lurching motions, muzzle recoil and other environmental conditions. All of this is mated to core computing elements that help the pilot adjust more quickly for atmospheric conditions and such, providing a more accurate 'lead' for almost every shot." (TechManual, pg. 238)
  
• "The weight of a targeting computer is based on the weight of all direct-fire, non-missile heavy weapons (not counting machine guns, flamers or TAG systems) used by the unit. Ammunition, power amplifiers, heat sinks and turret/pintle mechanisms are not counted in this weight. Inner Sphere units compute this weight as equal to the tonnage of such weapons, divided by 4. Clan units compute targeting computer weight by dividing the total weight of all applicable weapons by 5. This weight is rounded up to the nearest full ton. For BattleMechs and IndustrialMechs, the targeting computer occupies as many critical slots as its tonnage (for example, a 4-ton targeting computer takes up 4 critical slots), which must be allocated contiguously and may not be divided among multiple locations (per standard equipment rules)." (TechManual, pg. 238)

The Clan-built Masakari has a TC as fixed equipment, and the weight & volume of said TC varies across the configurations as a function of the weight of the applicable weapons mounted (such that the TC on the Masakari Prime, C, E, and "Tara" consumes 5 tons & 5 criticals, the TC on the Masakari A, B, D, and H consumes 4 tons & 4 criticals; by contrast, the TC on the Puma Prime (as pod-mounted equipment) consumes 3 tons & 3 criticals, but the TC on the Puma H consumes 2 tons & 2 criticals).
By contrast, Clan TCs in MW3 were always 1 ton + 1 crit-slot, regardless of what weapons were mounted.

Personally, I would be unsurprised if PGI went with a combination of the canonical weight/crits requirements (so as to preserve the weight/slot distributions of the canonical builds) & the MW3-style functionality.

[Goose of Prey]

It is nice to see so many people with such a high opinion of PGI's coding abilities. A separate crosshair that can assist in lag shooting would not only be OP, but beyond PGI's ability to produce. Think about their issues with ballistics, and SRM hit reg.

NOW they will be able to graphically represent lag that will accurately predict and register direct damage? Sorry, I just can't be that optimistic. If they can do this then the current state of SRM hit reg. is nearly criminal.

Instead I think what we will see is assistance in targeting, not shooting. Instant mech details, maybe recorded detail of mech damage so we can pull up the last know status of any previously spotted mech by our team. Even when that mech is out of LoS.

A big boost in scan range, auto detection of shut down mechs, or even no range limit LoS targeting added in. Maybe.

We must also keep in mind the PGI's current position is a desire for cash, err....ah... balance with the new clan pack.


Personally, I am expecting the targeting computer to be 57.875% better than the command council, and the faction medallions.......... combined.

[Silentium]

I was mainly just trying to think of something that wasn't an aimbot. I suppose another possibility would be to allow a targeted location to be highlighted or something, and leave it to the pilot to make the shot.

[Morang]

Another stub probably. PGI has absolutely zero skill in producing any form of user interfaces. So why should they care? People will eat it anyway.

Edited by Morang, 09 April 2014 - 12:30 AM.

[Rubidiy]

I really start to admire PGI. They're so inventive in making mechwarrior experience worse over and over again...
How inexplicably dumb you should be to implement a bullshit that allows everyone with poor aim to hit light mechs with ballistics or PPCs???

[verybad]

Hmm, increased speed on direct fire weapons projectiles might be the best way to make it actually useful. Having a lead target would be relatively useless for multiple types of direct fire weapons. For lasers it could reduce the time it takes to fire.

I know that's not how a targeting computer would "actually" work, but that's about the only thing that would make them useful in any way, Lead fire gunsights would only be helpful (and not that much IMO) if you're using only one weapon type.

The other option is for them to affect the weapons actual fiiring speed related to their projectiles velocity. However this would be useless for lasers, which ARE supposed to be helped by TCs.

[Sandpit]

I'd rather it do something more along the lines of increasing lock speeds, decreasing ecm range, etc. but it's been a paperweight for 2 years and will probably remain so.

[Armando]

How about the targeting computer telling us how many friendly pilots are also targeting the enemy mech. (A number next to the solid triangle)

As examples...
You plus one friendly pilots targeting enemy mech there is a '2' next to the solid triangle
You plus three friendly pilots targeting enemy mech there is a '4' next to the solid triange