88 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 10 April 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Just watched the video. As expected, it was a bunch of bads getting whomped by a coordinated team.

LRMs played a part, but they weren't dominating. The coordinated push that occurred after the UAV went up is what caused the stomp. Sure the UAV and LRMs are what allowed the coordinated push to happen, but really they were just a distraction.

Thinking. Mans. Shooter. Demonstrated perfectly.

[Almond Brown]

Corbon Zackery, on 10 April 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

They are overpowered.

stuff

http://youtu.be/DYQKiTkHe0g

This no guts not galaxy vid is a perfect example of how overpowered the LRMs are one UAV destroys the whole team who is under full cover of the H7 hill at no point and time does the missile boat have line of sight to any of the mech and that's a big hill. This vid dooms your whole post.

A Team equips gear, uses it properly (2x btw) and they also have the required support weapons (LRM's) available to maximize said gears potential and what we get back is

Quote

"They are overpowered"

Did anyone see any AMS on the enemy Team, any at all?

This is why we will never have any nice things in MWO.

[Livewyr]

Corbon.. did you read the OP?
...

[Trauglodyte]

Corbon Zackery, on 10 April 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

They are overpowered.

The damage should be .08 and speed should be 120m/s

Its the dumbest weapon in the game point click and shoot. Wow how challenging.

Major changes need to be done if the speed is going to stay at 160m/s.

Slower rate of fire: So you can't just link fire spam shoot a guy to death at 200 to 550 meters

Angle and downward arch: This is a huge problem since it ignores about 50% of the Low to Medium terrain.

Angle of launch at 700 to 1000 meters these missile seem to launch extremely high allowing them to clear canyon walls.

Spread of missile: when fired without line of sight.

UAV: Detection treats it as a spot from a light. Duration needs to be lower or have it show enemy positions yet not provide target locks.

Possible selector forcing the LRM pilot to chose from indirect fire to direct fire.

Just major a overhaul to bring them back in line with other weapons. 160m/s was a good start but more needs to be done quickly.

LRM ruined the game during closed beta so they should be constantly looked at with a microscope to make sure they are in balance with the game.

We shouldn't be swayed by micro calculations done by a power gamer who packs 100 missiles on a stalker and 7tons of ammo launches a UAV and blows away a whole team.

http://youtu.be/DYQKiTkHe0g

This no guts not galaxy vid is a perfect example of how overpowered the LRMs are one UAV destroys the whole team who is under full cover of the H7 hill at no point and time does the missile boat have line of sight to any of the mech and that's a big hill. This vid dooms your whole post.

LRM bad right there. That LRM boat, if you can even call it that, was a horribad Catapult A1 boating LRM5s against a team that picked the absolute WORST spot to fight on that map. They played poorly and paid the price for it. In the future, don't use NGNG videos to prove your point - they're terrible.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

That's fine, but you don't need an LRM boat to do that. You need an LRM 5 and a ton of ammo.

I know a bunch of people who do that.

I used to put a single LRM5 on a lot of my mechs. It worked like a charm most of the time. But, the rest of the times, it was just a waste of 3 tons. I'm more of a fan of a single ALRM10, 15, or double ALRM10s now as supplementary weapons. Rugged enough to do decent damage, scary enough to make people take pause, and heat efficient enough to pair up with other systems.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

Yeah I really do believe we need to have a discussion about cover vs. concealment.

Seems like a lot of people don't understand this concept.

Especially with weapons that have an arc.

I'm seeing this coming up a lot in threads.

The only real maps that this becomes an issue are Caustic Valley and Alpine Peaks. And that is because the angle of the hills is flat enough that you end up eating missiles even if you think that you wouldn't. It is always fun having some smart ass poptarter sitting in both of these maps thinking that they're cool and covered only to eat a nice salvo.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

The only real maps that this becomes an issue are Caustic Valley and Alpine Peaks. And that is because the angle of the hills is flat enough that you end up eating missiles even if you think that you wouldn't. It is always fun having some smart ass poptarter sitting in both of these maps thinking that they're cool and covered only to eat a nice salvo.

Which always seem to be the two maps that every person who has trouble with LRM's uses as their example.

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Which always seem to be the two maps that every person who has trouble with LRM's uses as their example.

True enough. The real question remains: Do we suggest PGI changing the map or educate people as to what is and isn't cover?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

True enough. The real question remains: Do we suggest PGI changing the map or educate people as to what is and isn't cover?

Educate people.

I was against a group with aniviron recently who did an amazing job using an attack path in Alpine so that I had a hard time utilizing some LRM's I had on my Highlander.

Caustic is tough, but not impossible...but I mean have you tried using LRM's against a good team on Crimson or River City? They are so bad for LRM's it's almost not worth the effort unless it's a bunch of derps wandering into the water.

It's not bad to have some variety.

[Roadkill]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

I was against a group with aniviron recently who did an amazing job using an attack path in Alpine so that I had a hard time utilizing some LRM's I had on my Highlander.

Caustic is tough, but not impossible...but I mean have you tried using LRM's against a good team on Crimson or River City? They are so bad for LRM's it's almost not worth the effort unless it's a bunch of derps wandering into the water.

It's not bad to have some variety.

I'm pretty sure that random map selection is deliberately part of PGI's efforts to reduce the effectiveness of boats. The idea being that a boat is less appealing if you might randomly draw a map for which the boat is inappropriate.

Unfortunately, since the matchmaker is so random anyway, it doesn't stop people. You can draw the perfect map for your boat and still lose because the matchmaker said so, or you can draw an impossible map for your boat and still win because the matchmaker said so.

[wanderer]

DaZur, on 10 April 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Understood and agree to a point.

I'm not talking about being re-locked by a spotter... I'm talking about the inability to shake that initial lock even having quickly broken that LoS and taken evasive maneuvers.

That said, If I get notice of incoming missiles, break LoS, move 100m laterally but yet still get hit by those missiles... the decay is just too long.

The present flight speed and decay of the lock combined mitigates tactical avoidance at all but the full extend of the Missiles range.

Mind you, I'm presently comfortable with the LRMs and mitigating their impact on my game-play... That said, if I had any say in giving targeted mechs a means to assume a defensive posture... I'd reduce both the default and module decay timeouts.

Let's describe what it takes to do that.

Assuming TAG is active AND I have you sighted, it takes me about a second to get lock and fire with an Artemis launcher. If I'm within about 560m (that is, medium range) at that point, I'll hit assuming I fired just as you broke LOS again. If I fired one second after you left LOS, I have to be within 400m to get a fully-guided shot assuming (and it's a good assumption) target decay module. Note that I can't tell if you did until you blink off my HUD, meaning plenty of longer shots eat dirt.

Without it, firing at a target moving out of LOS becomes an exercise in futility under 300m. It's why having the module on LRM boats is virtually mandatory and Artemis is almost a gimme. Without quick locks and target decay, odds are you'll utterly miss anyone peeking out even if you know where and when they're doing it.

[Livewyr]

wanderer, on 10 April 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Let's describe what it takes to do that.

Assuming TAG is active AND I have you sighted, it takes me about a second to get lock and fire with an Artemis launcher. If I'm within about 560m (that is, medium range) at that point, I'll hit assuming I fired just as you broke LOS again. If I fired one second after you left LOS, I have to be within 400m to get a fully-guided shot assuming (and it's a good assumption) target decay module. Note that I can't tell if you did until you blink off my HUD, meaning plenty of longer shots eat dirt.

Without it, firing at a target moving out of LOS becomes an exercise in futility under 300m. It's why having the module on LRM boats is virtually mandatory and Artemis is almost a gimme. Without quick locks and target decay, odds are you'll utterly miss anyone peeking out even if you know where and when they're doing it.

Agreed, which is why I would be behind a small reduction in (TD/ATD) decay time, because the missiles are moving significantly faster now in comparison to when the module came out, but not fast enough to warrant a removal entirely.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Which always seem to be the two maps that every person who has trouble with LRM's uses as their example.

Large open Area... lots of Sloping cover... why would LRMs be hurt in terrain they were meant to be used most?

[Corwin Vickers]

Not to mention you wouldn't try to cross those long open areas with direct fire on the other side either

[Ajantise]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

True enough. The real question remains: Do we suggest PGI changing the map or educate people as to what is and isn't cover?

Educate people how to play a unfair game with broken balance? We know how to play, but it is boring to play like that, so no thanks...
ps. Let me say again the game now is not hard, it is unfair.

[Livewyr]

Ajantise, on 12 April 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Educate people how to play a unfair game with broken balance? We know how to play, but it is boring to play like that, so no thanks...
ps. Let me say again the game now is not hard, it is unfair.

Given how many people think that LRMs are just cheating noob weapons.. I'd argue that many, if not most people, do not know how to play..

[Lynx7725]

Livewyr, on 13 April 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Given how many people think that LRMs are just cheating noob weapons.. I'd argue that many, if not most people, do not know how to play..

I just came out from a River City Night Skirmish match where I had weird ping issues, a lot of warping and jumping. Was pushing a heavy LRM boat. Still managed to clock just a hair under 500 damage and 4 kills. Why?

1. Enemy team never reorganized. Their train was really long, from lower city through the port to midway to upper city. I was dropping LRMs on a Cat-A1 (which ironically was also a LRM boat that never retaliated) almost from the start.

2. Enemy team was very incautious about movement, exposing themselves repeatedly to spotters, including myself. Good grief, I couldn't help but lock up on targets... Frankly, there are times you need to assault across open ground, but you shouldn't break concealment unnecessarily.

3. Enemy team did not clear their own backsides of spotters. One of our team scouts was tailing the aforementioned Catapult until it got buried. I mean, the scout was right on the Cat's backside...

4. Enemy team never put out harassers or counter battery fire. The enemy team had 3 lights but I only saw two.. both being chased by our lights after they tried to run into the face of our primary lines. I was telegraphing my position with static launches (too many targets, need to kick that habit), but none of them even tried coming my way.

5. My team had people who knew how to lock -- and hold the locks. Really grateful for those.

6. My team had, by fortune or design, concentrated on a good position. Helps when the enemy bashes themselves on the defense line, while coming in from the open waters.

There was no way -- and I'm honest enough to admit it -- no way I could have gotten the results without cooperation from both my team and the enemy team. When a weapon system has to depend on the enemy to cooperate to be most effective...

[Mavairo]

Corbon Zackery, on 10 April 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

They are overpowered.

The damage should be .08 and speed should be 120m/s

Its the dumbest weapon in the game point click and shoot. Wow how challenging.

Major changes need to be done if the speed is going to stay at 160m/s.

Slower rate of fire: So you can't just link fire spam shoot a guy to death at 200 to 550 meters

Angle and downward arch: This is a huge problem since it ignores about 50% of the Low to Medium terrain.

Angle of launch at 700 to 1000 meters these missile seem to launch extremely high allowing them to clear canyon walls.

Spread of missile: when fired without line of sight.

UAV: Detection treats it as a spot from a light. Duration needs to be lower or have it show enemy positions yet not provide target locks.

Possible selector forcing the LRM pilot to chose from indirect fire to direct fire.

Just major a overhaul to bring them back in line with other weapons. 160m/s was a good start but more needs to be done quickly.

LRM ruined the game during closed beta so they should be constantly looked at with a microscope to make sure they are in balance with the game.

We shouldn't be swayed by micro calculations done by a power gamer who packs 100 missiles on a stalker and 7tons of ammo launches a UAV and blows away a whole team.

http://youtu.be/DYQKiTkHe0g

This no guts not galaxy vid is a perfect example of how overpowered the LRMs are one UAV destroys the whole team who is under full cover of the H7 hill at no point and time does the missile boat have line of sight to any of the mech and that's a big hill. This vid dooms your whole post.

Please...just uninstall Now.

[Lyoto Machida]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

True enough. The real question remains: Do we suggest PGI changing the map or educate people as to what is and isn't cover?

Since the average intelligence level in this game (and life) seems to be pretty low, I suggest a module for 2,000,000 C-bills that will color code the terrain to let you know what is safe to hide behind from LRMs. Maybe an illustrated arc also for this vision mode that will lead straight back to the LRM boat. Maybe even make the LRM boats visible through terrain (like x-ray vision) as well with huge arrows above their head.

Make the indicators bright and flashy so that LRM defensively challenged players have no way to miss the signals. If people with epilepsy are affected, they are merely collateral damage in the fight against LRMs.

To balance this, all enemy mechs that have no LRMs will not appear on your screen at all while using this "special" vision mode. Live by the sword, die by the sword...

[Sigilum Sanctum]

I've been lurking for a while and I only started playing the game...maybe a couple of months ago? I'm getting decent I think...but right off the bat I was in the Anti-LRM Boat....boat.

But I'm starting to learn here, and maybe I can move that into the game. I typically try and spot and get some kind of cover. But half the time I realize I'm getting butt-****** by LRM's its because either:

A: NO ONE, has ECM
B: NO ONE, or maybe 2 - 3 players have AMS
C: I'm trying to scout (with an appropriate mech or not) and I'm being an idiot about it.

I need to cobble together a good scout mech with NARC and maybe UAV usage, and on the opposite spectrum invest in an ECM boat to help out my team.

I'm a noob and you guys have enlightened me. I hope to play better, and maybe play with some of you.

(on a personal note, Oxide's can still **** right off >_>)

See you planet side.
-Sigilum Sanctum.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 13 April 2014 - 04:17 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 13 April 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

I need to cobble together a good scout mech with NARC and maybe UAV usage, and on the opposite spectrum invest in an ECM boat to help out my team.

No no no. The proper way to learn it is to do it with a scout mech without NARC or UAV. NARC or UAV just lets you do it better. Having them tends to have a negative effect when you try to use basic spotting skills.

[Colonel Fubar]

They finally got the LRM's up to speed reflecting proper impact on the 31st century Battlefield. It's nice seeing the brawlers adding at least one launcher to their loadout. But once again PGI dwankies were right back tweeking it away a week later. This is one of the biggest problems with this game that they seem incapable of just leaving things alone. Rather than whatever the weekly hair up their backside dictating what weapon system to be tweeked up or down next. Remember MW3 & MW4 and expansions, how well balanced they were right out of the box. Not to mention how many maps each and there expansions had right out of the box. But that is another subject, one of many that doesn't get addressed or is in the make it up as we go alone mode.