42 replies to this topic

[Cyttorak]

How would C3 be implemented in a FPS-esque setting? The main benefit of C3 is to reduce range modifiers in the TT game. Assuming shooting is like in any FPS, then "range modifiers" are determined by how big the target is on-screen, how fast it's moving and how steady your hand is.
Because pilots are avatars, there may be some "shakiness" built in by developers to the reticle. This then allows the removal of shakiness by better gunnery skill or items like C3.
Also, C3 could be like the old Zoom feature of previous games, where only C3-equipped mechs would get the hugely magnified viewscreen to make hitting easier.
C3 isn't useful in close (since there is no range modifier), but neither is Zoom...so the comparison seems to fit. Blocking of C3 networks by ECM would reduce the max amount of magnification you would experience.

[Alistair Steiner]

MechWarrior Living Legends does a good job with C3. If you're in a 'Mech with C3, and detect an opponent, but are also within radar range of an ally who cannot detect the opponent through their own means, your radar info is fed to them. This can be chained up to three times (I think), making it possible for your Long Tom artillery to accurately target opponents nearly 3 km away, if I remember correctly. Plus, you get a nice monetary incentive for your information.

[Corsair114]

Target hand-off by scout 'mechs to friendly C3 lance mates, as well as the ability to share enemy location (if not targeting data) with the rest of your "side" in a given environment.

Otherwise, target detection will probably be WYSIWYG. Maybe a handful of improved detection, but you'll still lack overall situational awareness.

[CeeKay Boques]

Maybe radar doesn't give you the [ ] that's usually been available. The C3 relays exact position and you get the targeting brackets? Also, name rank and serial number and damage read out? More detailed, exact information. C3 also marks items beyond your radar range. So, Imagine a 600m range of your regular radar, but Items picking up beyond that. helpful for non BAP missiles...

Maybe on the friendly side you get Always On IFF on your friendlies, while normally you're radar dark unless you scan them with a reticule.

[Cyttorak]

Alistair Steiner, on 16 November 2011 - 11:28 PM, said:

MechWarrior Living Legends does a good job with C3. If you're in a 'Mech with C3, and detect an opponent, but are also within radar range of an ally who cannot detect the opponent through their own means, your radar info is fed to them. This can be chained up to three times (I think), making it possible for your Long Tom artillery to accurately target opponents nearly 3 km away, if I remember correctly. Plus, you get a nice monetary incentive for your information.

That's a bit different, since your example uses Long Tom, which wasn't supposed to be LOS in the TT game anyway.
I'm not just talking about radar info, but the ability for a distant mech with long-range weapons and clear LOS to either use the visual feed (somehow) of the spotting mech to make shots, or just have the ability to "scope" the target with zoom.

[Alistair Steiner]

Cyttorak, on 16 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

That's a bit different, since your example uses Long Tom, which wasn't supposed to be LOS in the TT game anyway.
I'm not just talking about radar info, but the ability for a distant mech with long-range weapons and clear LOS to either use the visual feed (somehow) of the spotting mech to make shots, or just have the ability to "scope" the target with zoom.

Well, yeah, using Long Tom because it ends in a boom. But yes, it can help coordinate the fight. An ally just running out of the Mech Hangar would potentially be able to see what's going on 3+ km away, as far as enemy units and position, so that he/she would be able to position him/herself to better aid the rest of the team. A more drawn-out (but still used) function of the C3 computer.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

However C3 is not a standard fit on most mechs - maybe given the designations that the dev's used for the mech types ie Scout. defender, brawler commander etc maybe they will do their own updates to the mechs, including fitting C3 to most mechs as standard? I'd certainly like to see the sensor's set up far more like the original TT than the radar shows everything model used previously.

[Cyttorak]

Technoviking, on 16 November 2011 - 11:30 PM, said:

Maybe radar doesn't give you the [ ] that's usually been available. The C3 relays exact position and you get the targeting brackets? Also, name rank and serial number and damage read out? More detailed, exact information. C3 also marks items beyond your radar range. So, Imagine a 600m range of your regular radar, but Items picking up beyond that. helpful for non BAP missiles...

Maybe on the friendly side you get Always On IFF on your friendlies, while normally you're radar dark unless you scan them with a reticule.

C3 didn't give you all the enhanced IW abilities (BAP,ECM,TAG,etc.) of your scout in the TT, just the range modifier benefits. Now, if the devs REALLY wanted to pump up the value of C3, they could always include that...but I kinda think it'd be overkill.
Also remember that C3 info will be shared among all units in the network. If you are now sharing sensor data, then it will end up *devaluing* certain functions of the commander player.

[Gaius Cavadus]

C3 isn't worth incorprorating into MWO as it's own thing. All allied units should be networked this way and it should be standard on all mechs.

All of the electronic warfare elements from the boardgame need to be trashed because they're far too pedestrian. Mount this one ton BAP and your radar can detect 200 meters further!

ORLY?

C3 should be standard fare for all mechs. ECM and BAP need to be completely overhauled into useful pieces of equipment so there can be a serious and real electronic warfare component for once. What's been done before in the video and boardgames is laughable.

Reimagining ECM and BAP would breathe a huge amount of life into smaller mechs and solidify a true role for them once and for all.

Edited by Cavadus, 16 November 2011 - 11:44 PM.

[Cyttorak]

@Cavadus

Um...no. Just no.

[Iron Horse]

Cyttorak, on 16 November 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

How would C3 be implemented in a FPS-esque setting? The main benefit of C3 is to reduce range modifiers in the TT game. Assuming shooting is like in any FPS, then "range modifiers" are determined by how big the target is on-screen, how fast it's moving and how steady your hand is.
Because pilots are avatars, there may be some "shakiness" built in by developers to the reticle. This then allows the removal of shakiness by better gunnery skill or items like C3.
Also, C3 could be like the old Zoom feature of previous games, where only C3-equipped mechs would get the hugely magnified viewscreen to make hitting easier.
C3 isn't useful in close (since there is no range modifier), but neither is Zoom...so the comparison seems to fit. Blocking of C3 networks by ECM would reduce the max amount of magnification you would experience.

I agree, the "zoom" scope seems to parallel some of these functions quite nicely!

Cavadus, on 16 November 2011 - 11:43 PM, said:

C3 should be standard fare for all mechs. ECM and BAP need to be completely overhauled into useful pieces of equipment so there can be a serious and real electronic warfare component for once. What's been done before in the video and boardgames is laughable.

Reimagining ECM and BAP would breathe a huge amount of life into smaller mechs and solidify a true role for them once and for all.

Perhaps the Slave C3 should be standard (as noobs and randoms can't be counted on to clear up an extra ton to mount one (it's either a half-ton or one-ton, I can't really recall)). But, the Master C3 could be a special equippable that activates the actual networking aspect of all of the Slave units in the field (or in your example increases the range, improves some other functionality, etc.), perhaps even as required equipment for the highest ranking unit deployed (if he doesn't bring one, then SOL).

Edited by Iron Horse, 17 November 2011 - 12:01 AM.

[Cyttorak]

As a general principle: if everyone has access to a piece of equipment or function, then that equipment/function is no longer "special" and instead becomes the norm.
There are balance issues for C3 in the fact that only Draconis Combine has the technology...this would have to be handled by the devs, probably by wider dispersal of the tech after the initial release. But in the beginning, this could be one of the benefits of being a DC member.

The same principle applies to any other tech: if everyone can have BAP, ECM, TAG or NARC, then it devalues the "special" mechs that are supposed to have it in canon.

[CeeKay Boques]

Cyttorak, on 16 November 2011 - 11:43 PM, said:

C3 didn't give you all the enhanced IW abilities (BAP,ECM,TAG,etc.) of your scout in the TT, just the range modifier benefits. Now, if the devs REALLY wanted to pump up the value of C3, they could always include that...but I kinda think it'd be overkill.
Also remember that C3 info will be shared among all units in the network. If you are now sharing sensor data, then it will end up *devaluing* certain functions of the commander player.

For sure, those options are more one or the other. Not all inclusive, give me other tech to buy. C3 could be one ofi info upgrades But since "To hit" is so important in BT but probably won't be here, got to give it some more juice, enough for everyone to drop tonnage to take it, but it could be MOSTLY useful to guided weapons.

[DocBach]

Guardian ECM and Beagle are easy - in MW2 terms, I'd imagine something like if you've got ECM you don't show up on radar and can't be targeted by tapping the "E" key, you can only get targeting data after establishing visual ID and then manually targeting the ECM-equipped 'Mech,as well as disrupting the effects of any electronics in a radius around it - perhaps it screws with your HUD if you are in proximity to a 'Mech with ECM. Beagle should be equipment that allows you to detect 'Mechs with ECM suites, and perhaps give your sensors either greater range, or make regular 'Mech sensors be something that is LOS dependent, with Beagle able to detect 'Mechs that are beyond your line of sight.

Edited by DocBach, 17 November 2011 - 08:08 AM.

[Ghost]

The best part about ECM on the tabletop is the fact that as long as the equipped mech remains in range, they jam C3.

[Havoc2]

Since C3 wasn't introduced until 3050, (according to http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3_Network) we won't need to worry about how they're implemented for a little while.

[Cyttorak]

}{avoc, on 17 November 2011 - 08:08 AM, said:

Since C3 wasn't introduced until 3050, (according to http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3_Network) we won't need to worry about how they're implemented for a little while.

Yeah, that's true...one year too early!

[Melissia]

One way is that the C3 computers would share radar data with eachother as long as the master isn't disabled.

That would be a pretty valuable thing to have I would think.

Edited by Melissia, 17 November 2011 - 09:00 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

C3 should be seen as a useful Command and Control tool. The C3 master unit (commander) send out his C3 slave(s) (scout) and then relays C3 info to other slaves on the Network. As for ECM, The greatest drawback to the ECM Guardian is its limited range. Any unit outside the 180 meter bubble remains unaffected.

So any knowledgeable pilot with C3 could/would/should simply assume and and all short ranged contacts may/will have ECM and keep a distance such that their C3 data can be useful to the Commander.

As for firing ranged weapons based on C3 data, any decent enemy commander that sees Missiles incoming from areas that he has no contact with on his system or C3 will assume that an enemy scout is forward and send out someone to deal with or chase it off.

That is what could make MWO a blast to play... "it is the little things"

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 November 2011 - 09:26 AM.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Cyttorak, on 16 November 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

@Cavadus Um...no. Just no.

Why? Did I hit your TT bone or something?