46 replies to this topic

[DONTOR]

Yep I bring it in almost all of my mechs, and always over AMS. I like fast mechs so LRMs arent a problem for me, but knowing more about your enemy than they know about you has won me many fights.

Edited by DONTOR, 09 April 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Rowanas]

I used to run it on my brawler, but generally, unless you're relying entirely on pinpoint weapons to the exclusion of all else, the reduction of targeting time isn't worth it. Given the low ammo capacity or slow refire rate of some of the high-end weapons (AC/20, gauss and PPC), getting that shot on orange or red can be well worth ditching something to make way for BAP. Just firing and hoping it will crunch through the armour is horribly inefficient, but you can do more of it. I certainly wouldn't scoff at a brawler that can place all 20-30 tonnes of firepower right into my weakened LT instead of pounding the pristine CT.

[T0rmented]

Contrary to popular belief:

BAP does not cancel ECM @ 180m. BAP cancels ECM @ 150m. That is why you always get low signal when nearing an uncountered ECM mech @ 180m.

Modules do nothing to change BAP's countering distance

You can detect and target ECM mechs @ 220m with adv. sensor range. Without that module its 200m. BAP has no effect on this.

[Amsro]

I take BAP over AMS if I have the tonnage. Cover is better then AMS, BAP is better then both.

Some mechs NEED it, some mechs just have the extra space/tonnage to use it.

I like BAP.

[SethAbercromby]

Amsro, on 09 April 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

I take BAP over AMS if I have the tonnage. Cover is better then AMS, BAP is better then both.

I hate it when people say that. AMS is so much more than just shooting down a few missiles targeting you. AMS shoots at all missiles in its range and creates a protective umbrella for 'Mechs that cannot immediately jump into cover when they hear the system warning. A tight formation with all AMS allows for higher mobility and thus a large tactical advantage over the enemy that can easier be pinned down with LRM salvos if they didn't do the same. I'd almost always choose AMS over BAP.

[Amsro]

SethAbercromby, on 09 April 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

I hate it when people say that. AMS is so much more than just shooting down a few missiles targeting you. AMS shoots at all missiles in its range and creates a protective umbrella for 'Mechs that cannot immediately jump into cover when they hear the system warning. A tight formation with all AMS allows for higher mobility and thus a large tactical advantage over the enemy that can easier be pinned down with LRM salvos if they didn't do the same. I'd almost always choose AMS over BAP.

But you see, LRM's still suck, so there are pretty much not an issue in the matches I play. *shrugs*

[Hellen Wheels]

It would be even cooler if Betty could announce when it is engaged:

"BAP...Engaged."

"BAP...Engaged."

etc.

[GrizzlyViking]

Votanin FleshRender, on 09 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Can anyone give me some pointers on what builds/roles/play styles benefit the most, or need BAP? Scouts? LRM boats? Snipers?

Thank you in advance

Streak boats (Shadow Hawk, Kintaro, Griffin) benefit most due to the BAP canceling out ECM on light mechs. Also, helpful for LRM boats, but not essential. Finally, BAP is helpful on support mechs that have no locking missiles to help override enemy ECM for teammates who have locking missiles.

SIDE NOTE: BAP and ECM do not work together on the same mech. In other words BAP does not cancel enemy ECM when equipped on a mech that has ECM equipped. BAP only overrides ECM when equipped on mechs that have no ECM. Mechs with ECM equipped must use the ECM counter option to counter enemy ECM. (With ECM equipped press the "J" key to jam/counter enemy ECM and press "J" again to toggle back to ECM disrupt mode)

(Edited for Koniving)

Edited by GrizzlyViking, 09 April 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Amsro, on 09 April 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

But you see, LRM's still suck, so there are pretty much not an issue in the matches I play. *shrugs*

LRMs do what they should do. I'm sorry they don't destroy a target after 30 missiles or give someone a chance to dodge, except not really. As indirect fire support, I have no trouble softening up enemy targets with LRMs to then be finished off by myself or an ally. LRM boating was never a good strategy and should never be.

[Amsro]

SethAbercromby, on 09 April 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

LRMs do what they should do. I'm sorry they don't destroy a target after 30 missiles or give someone a chance to dodge, except not really. As indirect fire support, I have no trouble softening up enemy targets with LRMs to then be finished off by myself or an ally. LRM boating was never a good strategy and should never be.

Hmm and yet a single lrm15 is pretty much useless, so that is the game balance for you. Show me your LRM stats I bet they are 30% accuracy mean that ammo/ton used is terrible. You man do well and have some fun with them. But no LRM's are not a good weapon in this game.

[Koniving]

GrizzlyViking, on 09 April 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

Mechs with ECM equipped must use the ECM jamming countering option to override enemy ECM by pressing "J" on the keyboard.

Fixed.

[SethAbercromby]

Amsro, on 09 April 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Hmm and yet a single lrm15 is pretty much useless, so that is the game balance for you. Show me your LRM stats I bet they are 30% accuracy mean that ammo/ton used is terrible. You man do well and have some fun with them. But no LRM's are not a good weapon in this game.

You forget that every missile that is shot down or lost due to broken lock counts as a miss in that equation. Modern artillery doesn't hit spot on that often, would you claim that its a bad idea to use? No, because it has amazing suppressive potential, even if it does miss a shot. THAT's what LRMs do. They supress enemy movement and allow the direct attackers to move in for the kill. If you have an ally with tag, your accuracy will greatly improve but in essence, LRMs aren't as much about damage as they are about control over the battlefield.

[Mycrus]

DONTOR, on 09 April 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

It actually provides another benefit which is increased target info gathering by 25%. This means you see where the enemy is hurt and what weapons it has 25% faster, coupled with increased target info module its 50% faster which equals WIN, especially in 1vs 1 scenarios.

Not true LRM boats need BAP to cancel out ECM equipped mechs that are near them preventing them from getting locks on distant targets, aswell as the previously mentioned benefits of target info gathering.

True enough 2 or less streaks dont need a BAP, 3 or more is when it is important to use BAP. As I mentioned LRM boats do need BAP.
What is your source for ADV sensor range modle cutting through ECM? Ive never heard of that.

Google ftw

[Amsro]

SethAbercromby, on 09 April 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

You forget that every missile that is shot down or lost due to broken lock counts as a miss in that equation. Modern artillery doesn't hit spot on that often, would you claim that its a bad idea to use? No, because it has amazing suppressive potential, even if it does miss a shot. THAT's what LRMs do. They supress enemy movement and allow the direct attackers to move in for the kill. If you have an ally with tag, your accuracy will greatly improve but in essence, LRMs aren't as much about damage as they are about control over the battlefield.

I'm glad they work for you, AC/2 is a better suppressor and it does pinpoint damage. LRM's still need work. http://mwomercs.com/...d-it-correctly/

[Dracol]

DEMAX51, on 09 April 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

BAP does nothing to keep you from being detected.

For scouts, the only real benefit of BAP is that it cancels one ECM and extends your sensor range. And to negate an ECM, you have to be within 180 meters of the enemy -- if they can't detect you when you're within 180 meters, you probably don't even need the BAP, because you're playing against morons.

It can be mildly useful to LRM-spotter Lights, but that's about it.

Ah, I would have to disagree, BAP does help remaining undetected by being able to target beyond the range of the enemy. Granted, maps like River City don't work to well for this... but Alpine is perfect.

Now I do not recall the exact ranges ATM so, picture this. You're in a mech with BAP. You get a ping near the extreme range of your radar. If that mech is not carrying a BAP, you have just detected and targeted him and they can not. If you're in a good position not to be visually spotted, the enemy has a good chance not to notice you until they are in range.... which you can avoid with your scout speed.

BAP helps lights remain undetected between the max normal range of radar and the extended range of BAP radar. Add to this the extended range radar module and you'll have a fairly comfortable zone to scout from with out automatically appearing on the enemy's mini-map and HUD.

[Wildstreak]

Best benefit - anything using PPCs & ACs. Need good aim especially against Lights and over long distances.

Sniping - PPCs, LLs (not LPL), AC2s, AC5s. Sometimes JJs.

LRM Boats - Best used with Artemis & TAG. Best used with twin launchers. You could use more but then you lose self-defense short range weaponry and become vulnerable. BAP could help, if you have module unlocks and purchased, Advanced Sensor is definitely a help, debate on a few others.

Scouts - Usually Lights but at times can be anyone though best done on Mechs with Speed, say 80+ kph. Some Scouting features are done over chat for no reward except the times you see your team respond and succeed. Never chat anything for scouting until you are sure you are under cover long enough.

BAP - usually I use it sometimes in Mechs either if I have long range weapons or just room to kill in the design. I ran BAP in a short range Awesome simply because I had the room, later adding Advanced Sensor for more range. Since my short range fighter sat around a lot at the start of matches, I figure both showed team members targets and I could report movements too until I got in the fight. BAP is also the ONLY system for finding shutdown enemies. Sometimes people forget the team benefits of BAP, I say every team should have 1 BAP.

I have not seen it tried but I think Streaks should also benefit from NARC.

Anythine else specific?

[Takashi Uchida]

I've always run my LRM boat with BAP (but without the sensor range mod because I couldn't afford it yet). I'm gonna try it without it and will be able to squeeze just a little more ammo on it. Since I have advanced sensor range now, my max range stacked with BAP will probably be around 1200m and it's probably not that useful since my missiles won't do anything that far out anyway.

The ECM jamming is handy for helping out friendlies if there's an ECM light in our midst, but doesn't do much for the individual missile boat. If they get that close to me, I'm in for a rough time anyway.

Edited by Takashi Uchida, 09 April 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Amsro, on 09 April 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'm glad they work for you, AC/2 is a better suppressor and it does pinpoint damage. LRM's still need work. http://mwomercs.com/...d-it-correctly/

I disagree with both (the AC and the thread). LRMs are fine the way they are and the tweaks they do need are only minor and not the ones you demand. The alert message is a perfect tool for suppression. The enemy has no idea whether its a salvo of 5 (laughable) or 40+ (quite dangerous), so the only choices he can do is to either take cover or take whatever may come and the intelligent person will often chose to attempt avoiding damage. This puts your allies at an advantage because while the enemy backs into cover, he can't fight back properly giving your allies the opportunity to take more advantageous positions and pin down the enemy with direct fire. And all of that without having to be in range or LoS. The one using the AC will always have to expose themselves to possible return fire from both the target and possible other hostiles standing in range (and enemy LRMs as well). LRMs are a good portion of a well-balanced battle and doing a good job balance-wise to make using them enjoyable and not ruining the day of the one they are being used on.

Bottom line: LRM boats have never been a clever idea to begin with but they are a great tool in a balanced loadout, which -back to topic- always profits from BAP in one way or another.


Early engagement will almost always begin a long range. If you have a LoS, the LRMs profit because you can use a direct lock that improves their spread a little and since you get your targeting data faster, you can sooner attempt to land your shots more effectively if you have direct-fire weapons for long range such as LLas or PPcs. The increased range also means that you will see a target sooner than others. Whenever I see a 'Mech further back that hasn't been targeted by anyone (triangle outline as opposed to a full one), I always target them first because as long as I can see them, everyone else does as well. The more information your team has, the more likely you are to win.

In medium ranged encounters (<600m), you mostly profit from the increased target info gathering which lets you sooner decide which part is the weakest and thus bring the fastest result in crippling or disabling the enemy (which I still need to work at myself but I'm getting there ).

The BAP gets most interesting in short ranged encounters though. Because it can cancel an ECM at <150m which is both good for you and your team as well (again, as long as I can see them, so does my team) and it allows you to target shutdown 'Mechs at <120m so even if your enemy overheats in panic, you can still have them targeted for convenience and to mark them for incoming missiles.

If you want to see a build that can perform at all of these ranges, here's an example of my Stalker 5S build I love to use and wouldn't trade for anything.

[Amsro]

SethAbercromby, on 09 April 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

LRMs are fine the way they are and the tweaks they do need are only minor and not the ones you demand.

I didn't demand any tweaks, I'm only pointing out that I'm not the only one who finds lrms completely neutered. They aren't a threat to me in a match, they might not be a hindrance on a weapon heavy stalker but you could still have a better build using that tonnage elsewhere.

As I said before, I'm glad they work for you.

But everything about them is broken. Basically missiles in general in this game are kinda crap, if streaks weren't 2.5 they would also be scrap.

But enjoy the slowest weapon in the game. Your lrms will never hit me, so it is just wasted tonnage.

[SethAbercromby]

Amsro, on 09 April 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

But enjoy the slowest weapon in the game. Your lrms will never hit me, so it is just wasted tonnage.

We might find out in some random PUG at some point in time. Until then, neither of us can prove the other wrong.