30 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Should Hero mechs be usable in Community Warfare?

Before the recent JJ nerf, the best mech in the game was undeniably the HGN-733C. However, PGI failed to adequately nerf the JJ abilities of the Victor. The effect is now, that the best mech in the game is the Dragon Slayer a mech which costs around $30 and cannot be purchased with C-Bills.

Here is a list of hero's which are the best variant of their chassis:

Ember
Flame
Firebrand (arguable)
Protector
Dragon Slayer
Misery

Ilya (was OP when UACs were strong)
Boar's Head (Stronger than the D-DC when LRMs were bad)
Jester (possibly the best Catapult, I am not familiar enough with them however)

Out of 29 mech chassis in game ~20% to 31% are led by hero mechs.

While it isn't Pay for wins, it is undeniable that these mechs have advantages over their C-bill brethren, some in the case of the Misery are enormous gaps in viability. Conversely this can apply to mechs which are not out for c-bills yet. Such as the couple of months the Shadow Hawk was for Phoenix only, for that period could fall under the Hero label as only people who paid real money were using it. The clans have the possibility to do the same thing.

[Karl Streiger]

I would call it advantage - they are different - for myself the missing AC 20 for the Dragon Slayer is a serious drawback - as well as the missing flexibility of missiles for the Misery

There are some variants that are good, some are bad - i don't think they will affect CW in a measurable way

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 April 2014 - 05:53 AM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Honestly I think the K2 is a better Cat than the Jester, especially since lasers are in desperate need of a balancing pass.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mechs like the Yen Lo Wang, Boars Head & Pretty Baby WERE Unique Mechs that belonged to Specific Heroic Pilots. Jester, Grid Iron and Huginn(?) are not.

For CW I would limit Canon Heroes to the Parent Unit that they are known to be from. I don't want to see YLW even in a Lyran Unit... outside the 10th LG. That was the Allard-Liao family Mech and belongs where Kai Is in Canon.

Outside of CW... I could care less who is using what!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 April 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[Ngamok]

Are you saying because of the tonnage difference on the Jump Jets, that the Dragon Slayer because of 1 ton jets is better than the HGN-733C? I don't know that paying $30 for 1 ton JJ makes it that much worth it.

[Ultimax]

Aside from the fact that this game has the least noticeable "pay to win" elements I have yet to ever encounter in a game, most of the "good" hero mechs basically just got lucky.

Swings in balance make some of them better or worst.

Several hero mechs are arguably horrible.


All of the "Prime" variants of the clan mechs on the site, are effectively Hero mechs - This would affect them as well, and some of them as built are basically dead on arrival.


From a business standpoint, you should never charge a customer for a product and then later tell them that they are not allowed to use it in some capacity.

Unless of course, you want to go out of business on purpose.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ngamok, on 10 April 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Are you saying because of the tonnage difference on the Jump Jets, that the Dragon Slayer because of 1 ton jets is better than the HGN-733C? I don't know that paying $30 for 1 ton JJ makes it that much worth it.

$30 for one toon?

I unlocked 2 player races an Treek for less money for that... and for a little bit more I got to have Treek for every Toon on my account. One toon for $30... Is that really a bargain?

[dario03]

The Dragon Slayer is a really good mech but so are all of the Victors. Being able to have all your weapons on one side does help convergence and allows you to expose less of you mech but having all of your weapons on your arms helps getting shots off to the sides.

[o0Marduk0o]

So the OP thinks he is able to tell what a good mechs is, right?

[Prezimonto]

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

I would call it advantage - they are different - for myself the missing AC 20 for the Dragon Slayer is a serious drawback - as well as the missing flexibility of missiles for the Misery

There are some variants that are good, some are bad - i don't think they will affect CW in a measurable way

I would agree. I have a Dragon Slayer and I used to (before movement nerfs) pilot my 9B a lot more. The problem is that the Victor is no longer really a fast assault brawler (which is it's iconic role) but it still does just fine as a PPC/AC poptart.

I'm so sick of changes in this game taking a dump on the setting. It would have made much more sense to up the ghost heat for the Victor PPC's to 1 (can't fire more than one without getting ghost heat) and a slight mobility nerf to bring the chassis in line with the AWS-9M. That would have killed the pop-tart meta, and made the mech still competitive as a brawler. Instead it brawls like the HGN... without it's extra armor and tonnage for weapons.

[Ultimax]

Prezimonto, on 10 April 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Instead it brawls like the HGN... without it's extra armor and tonnage for weapons.

I strapped on 4x JJs and a 350 engine to try and squeeze out as much as I can, but it's definitely "trying to make it work".

[mogs01gt]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 April 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Mechs like the Yen Lo Wang, Boars Head & Pretty Baby WERE Unique Mechs that belonged to Specific Heroic Pilots. Jester, Grid Iron and Huginn(?) are not.For CW I would limit Canon Heroes to the Parent Unit that they are known to be from. I don't want to see YLW even in a Lyran Unit... outside the 10th LG. That was the Allard-Liao family Mech and belongs where Kai Is in Canon.Outside of CW... I could care less who is using what!

Lore really shouldnt effect game play.

[Joseph Mallan]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Lore really shouldnt effect game play.

Disagree. We are playing MechWarrior which is in the BattleTech universe. Thus the game must fit the IP. Marik players should not have K varient Mechs that just released in the Draconis Combine. Ravens should be Liao only property with a few in Davion hands. I don't think Klingons fly around in Star Fleet ships. Jedi don't use Blasters. Limits are all over in MMOs... Heck my Fighters can't use Projectile weapons in Neverwinter... unless I want to be a Ranger.

[mogs01gt]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 April 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Disagree. We are playing MechWarrior which is in the BattleTech universe. Thus the game must fit the IP. Marik players should not have K varient Mechs that just released in the Draconis Combine. Ravens should be Liao only property with a few in Davion hands. I don't think Klingons fly around in Star Fleet ships. Jedi don't use Blasters. Limits are all over in MMOs... Heck my Fighters can't use Projectile weapons in Neverwinter... unless I want to be a Ranger.

We are playing MWO, an online FPS game. In game balancing should be based on in game play only. Battletech "whatever" has zero to do with game play balance.

I have no idea about the rest of the stuff you posted and I dont care. None of that has anything to do with game play, meta and MWO mech design.

[cSand]

It would make sense to have lore matter in CW... in general queue though I see no issue with letting people do what they want

[Gas Guzzler]

cSand, on 10 April 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

It would make sense to have lore matter in CW... in general queue though I see no issue with letting people do what they want

Saying we can't use Mechs that were bought and paid for in the best type of gameplay (CW) is kind of a bummer though...

OP: I have my 733C as a meta blaster with a big XL, SSRMs and all 4 Class 1 jumpjets, and it is better than my meta blaster Dragon Slayer. It has an extra UAC5 (vs the AC5), jumps higher (albeit slower), has more armor, has streaks (couldn't fit them on the DS), and torso twists faster.

The advantage the DS has is it can get into position faster because it runs 9 km/h faster, so I usually do end up doing more damage because I can give myself more shots. I guess you could argue that makes it better, but the 733C excels in combat once you get into position.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 April 2014 - 11:31 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 April 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Saying we can't use Mechs that were bought and paid for in the best type of gameplay (CW) is kind of a bummer though...

Exactly!

[Mystere]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

We are playing MWO, an online FPS game. In game balancing should be based on in game play only. Battletech "whatever" has zero to do with game play balance.

I have no idea about the rest of the stuff you posted and I dont care. None of that has anything to do with game play, meta and MWO mech design.

Actually. I disagree with you on this point. Battletech should have something to do with gameplay balance. It's just a matter of how much. Remember, we are playing a game set in a future dystopian universe constantly waging brutal war that has killed billions using giant waking machines of death. Fairness and balance are the last things on my mind.

It's the same with reality affecting general gameplay. The former should have something to do with the latter. And again, it's a matter of how much. We can't really have full reality, especially because of the "giant waking machines of death" part. But then again, not having anything based on reality might not be a good idea either.

[mogs01gt]

Mystere, on 10 April 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Actually. I disagree with you on this point. Battletech should have something to do with gameplay balance. It's just a matter of how much. Remember, we are playing a game set in a future dystopian universe constantly waging brutal war that has killed billions using giant waking machines of death. Fairness and balance are the last things on my mind.

No we arent. We are playing an FPS/MOBA, not an MMORPG.

Edited by mogs01gt, 10 April 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

No we arent. We are playing an FPS/MOBA, not an MMORPG.

They could implement a C-bill discount for faction specific mechs for those in the respective faction. Whereas out of faction mechs are salvaged/recovered from enemies and cost a bit extra..

OR they could give a C-bill bonus when using Mechs that are from the correct faction

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 April 2014 - 11:35 AM.