66 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

I am aware of that. Doesn't negate the point it makes more sense for the actual clan ideology and gives a good balancing point. And there is a reason that since inception, even the Product Line Developers have had issues, because the Clans, Their Military Doctrine, Cultural Ideology and Technology largely made no sense when viewed together.

Indeed, like I said. It was a nit pick that had little to do with your overall post. What I said also means that Clan tech being overpowered just because it was in the fluff isn't OK.

But the weight/crit disparity will mean that Clan tech is stronger than IS even if damage, heat, range, etc. are the same. Best is to come up with asymmetrical weapon designs. It is tricky though. Back to LRMs I think if you take away indirect fire you need to give no min range. Otherwise they will be of limited usefulness... not that that would be anything new to LRMs but not useful != balanced.

[Viges]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

hmmm...wow what a meaningful contribution?

Yea, like BIG NO to any cheese justified by "roleplaing".

Clan mechs better may have some general advantages but not 1-2 shotting IS mechs from 100-200m in "Honor Duels" style.

[CyclonerM]

I used to like the "flat trajectory" idea until Paul reminded me that "SSRM20s" would be bad for game balance.. So let us try with the opposite! MWLL got it right: As soon as they are fired LRMs fly with a very high arc so that it is not easy to hit enemies at very close range but if you tilt down you could hit a close enemy.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rouken, on 14 April 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Indeed, like I said. It was a nit pick that had little to do with your overall post. What I said also means that Clan tech being overpowered just because it was in the fluff isn't OK.

But the weight/crit disparity will mean that Clan tech is stronger than IS even if damage, heat, range, etc. are the same. Best is to come up with asymmetrical weapon designs. It is tricky though. Back to LRMs I think if you take away indirect fire you need to give no min range. Otherwise they will be of limited usefulness... not that that would be anything new to LRMs but not useful != balanced.

I never recommended removing minimum range.

Viges, on 14 April 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Yea, like BIG NO to any cheese justified by "roleplaing".

Clan mechs better may have some general advantages but not 1-2 shotting IS mechs from 100-200m in "Honor Duels" style.

then actually contribute a USEFUL game mechanic balance idea for the subject at hand. Also, if you don't like fluff, go pollute another game without a long running IP and history. Like Titanfall or Hawken. You don't play Star Wars without Light Sabers.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

I never recommended removing minimum range.

Sorry, I'm not attributing that idea to you. That is the way the devs were leaning last I heard.

I guess this would be my ideal Clan LRM.

- No min range
- Extremely limited turn speed out to ~180 meters
- Streamed launch (for example, fires 1 missile at a time, takes 1 second to fire all LRM per launcher)
- Minimal arc. Enough to clear friendlies and small hills/buildings
- Heat & recycle time used to adjust as need for balance

I'm trying really hard to sell the streamed launch idea. That alone would help mitigate a lot of the damage because of AMS, twisting, and cover. Also, I really love it in mechwarrior 2

[aniviron]

If I may be so bold, I'd like to see a completely flat firing trajectory for cLRMs. This makes them fairly useful direct fire weapons, and almost completely worthless at indirect fire. This fits with the zellbrigen mentality, and gives them a unique role compared to IS LRMs.

The one caveat I would like is the ability to aim the missiles more. If anyone played MW2, you might remember that LRMs have flat trajectories there too- but if you lock, quickly aim up and fire before lock loss, your missiles start on an upward flight path and then quickly come down again to give a modest arc to the launcher, allowing LRMs to penetrate soft/partial cover much like direct fire weapons.

[Viges]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

I never recommended removing minimum range.


then actually contribute a USEFUL game mechanic balance idea for the subject at hand. Also, if you don't like fluff, go pollute another game without a long running IP and history. Like Titanfall or Hawken. You don't play Star Wars without Light Sabers.

Is this your first time when title that you like has been corrupted into mmo f2p? Sad story...

Anyway its too late for that already, why cant you see. You cant build "true" clan tech in the middle of f2p game design, ghost heat, mwo ac mechanics etc.

What was told by devs about how they want to balance clans is ok for me. Some advantages, some disadvantages, will see.

But trying to use lore to balance things - no, bad idea - either clans will suck or will be imba - and this will be by design and hard to fix.

Btw a lot of people want to play SW without light sabers. Not relative - just saying.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viges, on 14 April 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Btw a lot of people want to play SW without light sabers. Not relative - just saying.

No, a lot of people want to play SW without being FORCED to use a Light Saber to be competitive. Aka not forced into a Meta. I don't think I have ever talked to an actual "Star Wars" player who wanted Lightsabers or even Jedi removed from the game. I suppose some CoD players who just want "generic twitch shooter in space" may indeed, but then you miss the whole point of the IP, yet again.

IPs do have to make adjust to MMO realities. That doesn't mean they have to sell off everything that makes the IP unique to simply prostitute for more players. You get short term returns that route, but keep very few long term players, and long term players invested into an IP are the ones who become your "whales" and actually keep the financial side afloat.

GG, close, I suppose?

[Khobai]

Quote

3) Reduce their Ammo loadouts to TT figures. Clans were notorious for not having enough ammo for long engagements. Clans should dominate the first 5 minutes of a match, and be out of ammo pretty much for the rest (which if played well, the fight should be over, in theory, anyhow)

Limiting ammo would be an awful solution and would just force clans to favor energy weapons, because clan energy weapons are already very good, and this would make them even better.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 14 April 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Limiting ammo would be an awful solution and would just force clans to favor energy weapons, because clan energy weapons are already very good, and this would make them even better.

their damage to weight ratio is still very high, and a slight decrease in ammo quantities for half weight launchers is a negligible tax to those who look beyond smurfy.

[Master Maniac]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

OK, so yeah, we all know that PGI has their ideas, and ....well, not that well received in general it sound like.

But, as a FOS based game, inherent balance has to be maintained to a reasonable degree, or we see the MetaSurges. We know that the Btech Line Developers, and Devs for MWO all feel the same, that Clan Tech was WAY OP, as implemented, and worse, TBH, simply did not fit into the Clan Mythos.

Clan Warriors fight primarily through Honor Duels, and feel support weapons, Sniping and such to be cowardly and dishonorable (Though taking vastly superior Mechs against their opponents is somehow OK with their honor). Yet..that majority of their weapons are elegant, long range strike weapons. ER Large Lasers, Gauss, ER PPCs and LRMs, which allows them to effectively out-range their IS opponents (especially with the crutch of a targeting computer.... how dishonorable is that?)

​Anyhow, enough preamble.

Clan LRMs are half the weight of IS LRM racks, and have no minimum ranges. Simply put, the Clan Missiles are the most egregious balance breakers, compared to their (eventual) IS counterparts.

I'm OK with that , TBH. But they should have limitations to their use to not only balance them, but fit Clan Ideology better (much as the Heavy Laser concept was meant to do). To do this, I propose:

1) Clan LRMs cannot lock using other mechs targeting data. Hence, no Indirect or "Support" fire, which the Clans supposedly find cowardly anyhow. This lack of extra computers and such might help explain some of the weight discrepancy, too.

2) Have a much flatter firing arc, again, removing them from the realm of "Support" weapon, and making them a LoS Long Range Dueling Weapon.

3) Reduce their Ammo loadouts to TT figures. Clans were notorious for not having enough ammo for long engagements. Clans should dominate the first 5 minutes of a match, and be out of ammo pretty much for the rest (which if played well, the fight should be over, in theory, anyhow)

4) Modules. They should not get Modules that boost inherently "dishonorable" weapons, like Advanced Target Decay.



Just a few of my thoughts. Engaging FlameShield^tm now. Fire for effect.

FlameShield? Ha, I already made this thread about two months ago, and it was promptly shut down by a cross-eyed moderator because too many people were agreeing with my ideas.

If that doesn't happen here, there is no justice (there isn't).

[Otterway]

Bishop, I like all your points. I just wonder if, even taken all together, they would be enough to balance a 5-ton lrm20. (Testing may be required at some point.)

So far, decreasing ammo/ton doesn't seem to be proving a popular idea, but I quite like it. I wonder if it would be feasible to combine significantly lower ammo/ton with an increased chance of ammo explosions - say 20% instead of 10%. Obviously, that would affect IS as well as clans, but clans would be forced to devote considerably more tonnage to ammo than their IS counterparts.

That way, lighter, deadlier weapons are balanced by being forced to pilot walking bombs. As a bonus, it helps explain why clans get free C.A.S.E. up the wazoo - it becomses a survival necessity.

As for this just forcing clans to run nothing but lasers, I am fairly confident that clan lasers will eventually end up running dauntingly hot. Everything in life is a trade-off, after all.

Disagree away.

[Rubidiy]

- Now, when we have IS LRMs' speed increased, we can balance out Clan LRMs by making them fly slower. Say 120mps.
- Trajectory should be much steeper, to a degree which prevents LRMs from hitting target behind cover.
- Not sure, but probably it would be wise to make each LRM-bearing Clan mech lock it's targets for itself.
These simple changes will make Clan LRMs work more like a medium range weapon, while IS LRMs will remain a long range weapon.

[Dracol]

i'd suggest making them either dumb fire rockets with an arch to the point the reticle is aimed at when fired...

Or, semi guided, where they follow the reticle after launch and can be guided in.

In either case, PGI has already stated they will have some type of min. range penalty. A start in a positive direction imho.

[Dracol]

Rouken, on 14 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

- Streamed launch (for example, fires 1 missile at a time, takes 1 second to fire all LRM per launcher)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a vid sequence with a Madcat launching LRMs in sequence. If I remember correctly, it looked really cool seeing the missiles leaving their launch tubes row by row.

[Gryphorim]

Below 180m, cLRMs should also spread over a wide area, tightening up at 180m to normal spread. Limits damage that can be done under 180m.

[Viges]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

IPs do have to make adjust to MMO realities. That doesn't mean they have to sell off everything that makes the IP unique to simply prostitute for more players. You get short term returns that route, but keep very few long term players, and long term players invested into an IP are the ones who become your "whales" and actually keep the financial side afloat.

I could ask you to remind me what pgi had done to support that dedicated battletech fans aka whales...

Anyway I dont agree on suggested mechanics. Without support roles/weapons clans will have to be 1-shooting is mechs or suck, and that is bad. It will be very very hard to balance.

And if you want to roleplay you can do it in private matches as I understand.

[Daekar]

Viges, on 14 April 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I could ask you to remind me what pgi had done to support that dedicated battletech fans aka whales...

Anyway I dont agree on suggested mechanics. Without support roles/weapons clans will have to be 1-shooting is mechs or suck, and that is bad. It will be very very hard to balance.

And if you want to roleplay you can do it in private matches as I understand.

Dude, they're trying to have a serious conversation here, and you popping up to say, "Nope, you can't balance it, Clans will either suck or be OP... and people who like lore are losers!" is not helping. If you have suggestions for game mechanics relevant to making CLRMs balanced and flavorful, by all means please share. If you don't, kindly refrain from pressing the 'reply' button.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Dracol, on 14 April 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a vid sequence with a Madcat launching LRMs in sequence. If I remember correctly, it looked really cool seeing the missiles leaving their launch tubes row by row.

I'm sure there is but I don't really know which one you're referring to. This is a video of the first mission in Mechwarrior 2 he fires the LRM20 a couple of times throughout. Note the long cooldown, it seems to be around 15 seconds.

You'll have to skip ahead since he goes through the mechlab and stuff... but who doesn't love the music from that game.

Edited by Rouken, 14 April 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Davers]

Rouken, on 14 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Sorry, I'm not attributing that idea to you. That is the way the devs were leaning last I heard.

I guess this would be my ideal Clan LRM.

- No min range
- Extremely limited turn speed out to ~180 meters
- Streamed launch (for example, fires 1 missile at a time, takes 1 second to fire all LRM per launcher)
- Minimal arc. Enough to clear friendlies and small hills/buildings
- Heat & recycle time used to adjust as need for balance

I'm trying really hard to sell the streamed launch idea. That alone would help mitigate a lot of the damage because of AMS, twisting, and cover. Also, I really love it in mechwarrior 2

1. No min range is bad. It really steps on SSRMs toes.
2.Limited turn range means that they are still devastating to anything but lights.
3. Streamed launch? So just like the planned SSRMs, only firing faster? (20 LRMs in one second)
4. Missile trajectory is an odd thing. Only a few degrees separated 'head busters' fromO 'handfuls of gravel'.

Balancing Clan weapons is going to be near impossible because they are not really 'alternate weapons' as much as 'vastly improved weapons'.