88 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

I'm still seeing posts out there where someone likes to point out how missiles are overpowered compared to Energy and Ballistic weapons because of their lock-on, indirect fire capability..
They seem to either forget, or omit the other characteristics of the weapons systems to make their "argument" seem strong.

So here's a re-education...(complete with a balance suggestion or two from someone who has used them since they were 630m range.. along with every other weapon in the game, save flamers and MGs..)

Long Range Missiles
WEPN--Wt--Rang--Min--RoF--Ht--Dmg
LRM5---02--1000--180--3.25--02--5.5
LRM10-05--1000--180--3.75--04--11
LRM15-7.5--1000--180--4.25--05--16.5
LRM20-10--1000--180--4.75--06--22
All inner sphere LRMs have a 180m minimum range. (no damage, just laughter and face-palming)
All LRMs (thus far) have 160 m/s speed.


Lockon:
Requires Line of Sight (Either by Launcher, or friendly mech)
Must be maintained for duration of flight. (Or missiles will go to last-known locked location.)

Flight Path:
No exact definition (PGI won't release)
Leaves tubes at approx. 15-20 degrees
Destination Angle is under debate, but I suspect it's somewhere around 50-55 degrees. (Not all cover works.)

That's the LRMs themselves. And now for related equipment:

BAP: Extends detection/locking range. Shortens Target/Lock-on time. (Also currently counters ECM within 150m at 1:1)
Artemis: Provides faster lock-on, and approx 30% tighter missile group. (ONLY WITH DIRECT LINE OF SIGHT)
TAG: Provides faster lock-on and tightens missile groups at up to 750m. (I think by 50%) (Also currently cuts through ECM, if ECM is outside 180m range.)
NARC: Allows target to be locked even after LoS loss.
UAV: Provides Target information/lock on for all mechs within #Range (UAV vs AUAV) of drone.
Target Decay: Keeps lock on target for # (TD vs ADT) seconds after you lose LoS.
Sensor Range: Extends range at which you can lock targets.
AMS: Shoots down a percentage (I cannot remember, but it think it's either 20% or 40%) of enemy LRMs within 200m, prioritizing LRMs locked on to the AMS carrying mech.
ECM: Prevents carrying mech from being targeted/locked outside 200m. Disrupts targeting/information and radar within 180m. Disrupts TAG use within 180 meters.

Lets look at how complicated that is... (And then think to how complicated an autocannon is to use.)

Ok Now lets talk about player considerations. (Assuming you know how to use LRMs.)
LRMs: Acquire target (either LoS- more reliable, or non-LOS- if it's random player: Pray. If it's a team player in communication with you: Pray a little less.)
Check distance to target and their surroundings (if LoS) to determine possibility of hitting target before it moves to cover. (It knows you fired.) If non-LoS... pray.
Check target and surrounding enemies for large concentrations of AMS. If non-LoS, pray.
Check masking and overhead cover. (Don't hit a wall in front of you, and don't hit a ceiling above you.)
Fire.
Maintain lock. (If LoS, watch missiles hit with satisfaction. If Non-LoS, watch for red reticle flash of hit indication... if no red flash after period of time, swear and try again.)

Repeat.
(They're much easier to use at 300-400 meters with LoS, and can be very deadly with TAG/Artemis, but you cannot torso twist while missiles are in flight... don't be alone.)


----------------------------------------

Now for recommendations: (These are just the changes, other things should remain status quo.

LRMs themselves:
Increase "normal" (un-aided) spread to about the size of an Atlas upperbody- Including Arms. (Hits, damages, but doesn't cripple...)

Boating/Alpha penalty: (Guidance system overload.)
For every 5 missiles in the alpha above 40 (2xLRM20) increase spread by 30%
(Ex: firing 4xLRM15 in Alpha would result in 220% of normal spread, resulting in a spread that would have 50% or more of the barrage land to the sides and above an Atlas.) This could be an advantage if you want to hit multiple mechs, but otherwise, obvious inefficiency.
[EDIT] Increase BASE lock-on time for mechs with multiple LRM launchers (beyond 2-3) -Wonderful suggestion from Trauglodyte

Artemis:
Same accuracy bonus, but drop the angle to near linear. (If you have LoS anyways, why not get the missiles get there faster?)

ECM:
Remove the stealth aspect. (That which totally prevents Locks/Targeting outside 200m)
Increase BASE Lock-on time by 50% (or 100, I don't care)
Increase BASE missile spread by 30% (for all mechs under umbrella)
Nullify Artemis.
Nullify BAP
Nullify Target Decay Module.
Nullify Sensor Range Module
Nullify NARC.

UAV:
Counter ECM within range.

BAP:
Remove counter to NARC.
Be informed of being ECM jammed within 180m. (Be the only one who's informed.)

TAG:
Drop range back down to 450. (If it isn't required to lock an ECM mech, it doesn't need the 300m range boost. It can just provide that accuracy bonus at 450m.)
Be required to activate Artillery/Air Strike LoS.

Command Module: (Not related to LRMs, per se- but related to TAG change.)
Activate Indirect Fire Map. (Battlemap for dropping artillery/airstrikes/UAVs non-LoS)


---------------------------------

And anything else I think to add later, or is suggested..


Thoughts?

[EDIT: Title and a pathetic grammar mistake, since I had to write and leave.]

[Volthorne]

Literally not able to like this enough, because the forum won't let me.

EDIT to contribute: The only suggestion I would make is link the boating/alpha penalty to number of tubes the 'Mech comes with. That way, natural boats don't get penalized for their stock configuration. IE: an LRM-60 DDC would have a much higher spread vs. an LRM-60 C4.

Edited by Volthorne, 08 April 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I'm fine with it, but won't happen. Paul will not allow it.

[Livewyr]

Volthorne, on 08 April 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Literally not able to like this enough, because the forum won't let me.

EDIT to contribute: The only suggestion I would make is link the boating/alpha penalty to number of tubes the 'Mech comes with. That way, natural boats don't get penalized for their stock configuration. IE: an LRM-60 DDC would have a much higher spread vs. an LRM-60 C4.

I see where you're coming from, but I think they already pay a bit of a price for launching "many missiles out of fewer tubes" in that the missiles launch at intervals making them give slightly more time to escape, and also setting them up to be taken out by AMS systems.

That said, I could see increasing the length of time between staggered launches, certainly. (Why do those missiles get launched so quickly when the recycle is so long?)

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 April 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'm fine with it, but won't happen. Paul will not allow it.

Probably not.. Paul and Russ seem aloof when it comes to missiles. (Numbers don't tell you how frustrating they are to use when ECM is in the game...good missile users have adapted and increase their success against ECM compared to bad players, but that doesn't make using missiles fun when fighting the stealth armor on/off switch.)


But I can still mention it, it makes sense, unlike many of the "missiles are OP" arguments.

[DaZur]

My contribution:

• LoS target-lock decay period needs to be decreased. In short, lose LoS, lose lock.

The speed increase + the present duration the lock stays active once the LoS is broken makes avoidance extremely difficult. Also reducing the grace-period makes both BAP and the decay module a far more important and viable commodity.

Edited by DaZur, 09 April 2014 - 06:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Volthorne, on 08 April 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Literally not able to like this enough, because the forum won't let me.

EDIT to contribute: The only suggestion I would make is link the boating/alpha penalty to number of tubes the 'Mech comes with. That way, natural boats don't get penalized for their stock configuration. IE: an LRM-60 DDC would have a much higher spread vs. an LRM-60 C4.

How would you suggest handling something like a Stalker? It has various Missile launchers but not the Champion LRM60? I like the suggestion, but am interested in what constitutes stock.

[Livewyr]

DaZur, on 09 April 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

My contribution:

• LoS target-lock decay period needs to be decreased. In short, lose LoS, lose lock.

The speed increase + the present duration the lock stays active once the LoS is broken makes avoidance extremely difficult. Also reducing the grace-period makes both BAP and the decay module a far more important and viable commodity.

What is the current unaided Target Decay time?
(I only ever use missiles with the Target Decay module, for good reason, so I've forgotten the decay time without it- from what I remember it was just about instant, you didn't even have to lose complete LoS, just most of it.)

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

How would you suggest handling something like a Stalker? It has various Missile launchers but not the Champion LRM60? I like the suggestion, but am interested in what constitutes stock.

The stock stalkers only have LRM10s, except 3H with 2xLRM20, I thought, the rest of the launchers being SRM tubes. (1-6 per)
(Champions are not stock, just popular configurations.)

[Joseph Mallan]

That's a fair distinction.

[DaZur]

Livewyr, on 09 April 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

What is the current unaided Target Decay time?
(I only ever use missiles with the Target Decay module, for good reason, so I've forgotten the decay time without it- from what I remember it was just about instant, you didn't even have to lose complete LoS, just most of it.)

With the Decay module it's 3.5 ... don't recall exactly what default is.

The problem crops up mostly with the "pop & spot" technique where a mech literally pops up, locks and instantaneously one of more mechs have missiles in the air.

[Randalf Yorgen]

DaZur, on 09 April 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

My contribution:

• LoS target-lock decay period needs to be decreased. In short, lose LoS, lose lock.

The speed increase + the present duration the lock stays active once the LoS is broken makes avoidance extremely difficult. Also reducing the grace-period makes both BAP and the decay module a far more important and viable commodity.

the advanced target decay module is what causes this problem. Personally I think the mods and the pilot trees are a complete step in the wrong direction and are completely not needed in the game, but that's just me, wanting to pit player skill against player skill, with no augments.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Randalf Yorgen, on 09 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

the advanced target decay module is what causes this problem. Personally I think the mods and the pilot trees are a complete step in the wrong direction and are completely not needed in the game, but that's just me, wanting to pit player skill against player skill, with no augments.

Yeah but you need Adv Target Decay because of...dun dun dun...ECM. And the fact that LRM's take forever to get to their target.

I'm still very much of a mind that LRM's need to be redone, ground up. With ONLY AMS being a counter.

Then you redo Artemis/TAG/NARC and have ECM counter ONLY those items, and not LRM's themselves.

This would allow PGI to open ECM up to be used by any mech, instead of this stupid system we have now where they are scared to release ECM.

BAP should not have any effect on LRM's (which it seems too now).

And when you redo LRM's, make sure to account for the fact that indirect fire really needs to be put in a position where it's not devastating people. And Direct Fire is competitive with FLD weapons.

[Roadkill]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 April 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'm still very much of a mind that LRM's need to be redone, ground up. With ONLY AMS being a counter.

Then you redo Artemis/TAG/NARC and have ECM counter ONLY those items, and not LRM's themselves.

You mean like... *gasp*... TABLETOP???

ERMAGAHD that makes too much sense. Silly Nicholas.

/sigh

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roadkill, on 09 April 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

You mean like... *gasp*... TABLETOP???

ERMAGAHD that makes too much sense. Silly Nicholas.

/sigh

Yeah, I know.

I just don't understand why it's not obvious that LRM's in MW:O are just not working.

Too many variables involved in balancing them at this point.

At some point you need to recognize that and cut your losses. Start over, and learn from the earlier mistakes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Randalf Yorgen, on 09 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

the advanced target decay module is what causes this problem. Personally I think the mods and the pilot trees are a complete step in the wrong direction and are completely not needed in the game, but that's just me, wanting to pit player skill against player skill, with no augments.

You must be a bad Warrior if you do not wish to fight Augmented Aff?

[Randalf Yorgen]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 April 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yeah but you need Adv Target Decay because of...dun dun dun...ECM. And the fact that LRM's take forever to get to their target.

I'm still very much of a mind that LRM's need to be redone, ground up. With ONLY AMS being a counter.

Then you redo Artemis/TAG/NARC and have ECM counter ONLY those items, and not LRM's themselves.

This would allow PGI to open ECM up to be used by any mech, instead of this stupid system we have now where they are scared to release ECM.

BAP should not have any effect on LRM's (which it seems too now).

And when you redo LRM's, make sure to account for the fact that indirect fire really needs to be put in a position where it's not devastating people. And Direct Fire is competitive with FLD weapons.

Fast missiles and a scout with a ppc is all you need for ECM but yes, I understand your good point and I like your good ideas. Perhaps if the UAV were to fly 350m AGL (above ground level) and did it's targeting by visuals or thermals (anything hot inside the ecm area is a target). It's outside ECM range, it's outside MG, SRM and SL laser range so all signals would reach the firing units.

But this is just another log on the fire that PGI is building under it's own feet.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

You must be a bad Warrior if you do not wish to fight Augmented Aff?

LOL I do try out new builds in my mechs but if you could see my loadouts you would find a number of SRMs, SL, MGs, Normal PPCs, Standard engines and dangerously heat balanced builds. I have taken trial mechs out from time to time as well and actually do quite will in them. Trial mechs are all about the pilots skill and not the Tech advantage.

A "CANON MECH" only game mode drop option would be the best thing IMHO that PGI could do at this point, oh and a Solaris 7 multi arena map pack, that would be fun as well.

edit: to remove those filthy contractions Quiaff

Edited by Randalf Yorgen, 09 April 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Target decay + tag shouldn't stack if any changes are needed.

I've been using LRMs a lot lately, I find people are moving behind cover breaking the lock, but I still hit some of them (according to cross hairs anyways). I think it is because they move behind cover, then stop, or just continue moving backwards still in the missles path. I try to stay between 200-500m so even if I lose the lock, i know the missles will still probably hit them if they aren't in a fast mech. This does put me in a bad spot if they charge tho, so it seems kinda fair.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bobzilla, on 09 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Target decay + tag shouldn't stack if any changes are needed.

I've been using LRMs a lot lately, I find people are moving behind cover breaking the lock, but I still hit some of them (according to cross hairs anyways). I think it is because they move behind cover, then stop, or just continue moving backwards still in the missles path. I try to stay between 200-500m so even if I lose the lock, i know the missles will still probably hit them if they aren't in a fast mech. This does put me in a bad spot if they charge tho, so it seems kinda fair.

Trust me, if they broke the lock, and some of those missiles still hit, it's not doing amazing damage.

I am totally fine with that, because it's basically the LRM boat wasting ammo.

[Bobzilla]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 April 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Trust me, if they broke the lock, and some of those missiles still hit, it's not doing amazing damage.

I am totally fine with that, because it's basically the LRM boat wasting ammo.

I agree, but the perception of LRM's being op or locking on too long gets over blown because of this.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bobzilla, on 09 April 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

I agree, but the perception of LRM's being op or locking on too long gets over blown because of this.

LRM's are full on psychological warfare in MW:O.

Bad players see the missile warning, and their minds shut down. It's immediately a chicken with their head cut off response.

Followed by whining on the boards.

I promise, if you added a "PPC FIRED" warning, or an "AC/5 INCOMING" warning to those weapons, people would get just as riled up over them.