116 replies to this topic

[iamunkle]

how bout you make hero mechs available for cbill purchase??!?!?

or is that too ludicrous??!?!?!?

if cbills and mc mix so well?


hmm?

[Eglar]

Loc Nar, on 15 April 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

This is bad, especially on the heels of the steady nerfing the cbill economy has undergone since Great Depression began some months back when Paul decided we were getting undeservedly space rich. Since the great cbill nerf, numerous layers of match delaying features have compounded the net effect of players abilities to grind up the large sums needed to get anywhere in this game.

Seeing this makes it all seem like crude f2p tactics to squeeze blood, which is a real turn off. I hadn't even considered the cbill nerf to come (launch module) until reading Roadbeers post, but he brings up a good point that makes this scenario even worse.

What's wrong with introducing C-Bill purchases? Getting C-bills for real cash has always been in this game, they just made a more direct approach. In fact you are better off on the 1600MC package to buy a CDA-2A(C), which comes with an XL340 (you can sell for 2.75mil) and sell the CDA-2A(C) itself for 500k CBills for a cool 3.25mil instead of 2.4mil for the regular package. (thanks hobowilly)

It is convenience for those who don't wish to grind money if they are short on time or just need a quick chunk. It's not golden ammo or super lasers. It's not priority access or advantageous. It is perfectly reasonable in a F2P game that does not allow In-game Cbill trading between players.

[wanderer]

Much like a dying sun consumes ever less-efficient elements to fuel itself, so we have reached the MC-for-Cbills point....where as noted, it's cheaper to salvage a 'Mech for parts to sell than buy Cbills straight up, making it almost totally a newbie move to buy C-bills directly.

Also, as noted it's setting what should be an exchange rate. If MC = C-bills, then there is no longer any reason for both currencies and everything should simply move to a C-bill model...and we can just cut the middleman out of the process.

Edited by wanderer, 16 April 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Eglar]

wanderer, on 16 April 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Also, as noted it's setting what should be an exchange rate. If MC = C-bills, then there is no longer any reason for both currencies and everything should simply move to a C-bill model...and we can just cut the middleman out of the process.

You couldn't exclude Hero Mechs than, which is exclusively available to people who invest money into this game. As for hero mechs themselves: they give you more C-Bills each match, which is another method of monetization for PGI and the fact that they give more c-bills is defeating it's purpose in your suggested model.
Hero mechs have no significant advantage in comparison to any other of the standard variants.

[Almond Brown]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

You're gonna have to fight for the XP to get your mech past basics. C-bills are to allow a player to try a different weapon, just for experimentation. Even 1 million C-bills included in the light mech starter pack would allow a player to immediately remove the small lasers and replace them with more DHS or medium lasers. The mechlab early on is needed for experimentation. Once you figure out what you want, you will start saving for the next big thing. That's how it's supposed to work.

So the 25 Million rec'd from the Cadet Bonus doesn't cover this experimentation enough?

How much more than 25 mill does one need to start with?

3 Mastered Atli and enough c-bills to fart around with them ad infinitum? Really?

Deathlike, on 15 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

That's unlikely to happen... because greed over logic.

Send some Lollipops to PGI, they will need to eat something...

[Almond Brown]

Pyrrho, on 15 April 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I can't understand why "this may replace that" keeps turning into "this will replace that".

It makes a "Tinfoil Hat" react better to its surroundings.

MicroVent, on 15 April 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

You won me over with this post. Price is so high no P2W involved and an expensive grind reduction if pilots are willing to pay it.

But from a new player view needing DHS, endo and XL you have a point. Earnings, required cbills earnings to advance, have slowed a lot. Do you play your own game. I want new players retained.

New players receive 25 million for 25 games played. Won or Lost. WTF else do you think they should get for Free?

KAT Ayanami, on 15 April 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

The problem is not the F2P model that MWO has.

The problem is the PRICE of the items!!! $30 for a single mech that only has different color, name and a couple of hard points? Are you crazy?

I am more disappointed about the 3 Large men who came to my house and forced me to BUY those items at those crazy prices. They could not be bargained with either. The arm twisting was quite painful too.

[Ngamok]

KAT Ayanami, on 15 April 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

The problem is not the F2P model that MWO has.

The problem is the PRICE of the items!!! $30 for a single mech that only has different color, name and a couple of hard points? Are you crazy?

http://www.neimanmar...LACK&ci_gpa=pla

Do people buy these?

mint frog, on 15 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

It's not pay to win so much as a clear exploitation of new players who don't know any better. Taking advantage of these new players will not turn them into long-term customers.

I would consider myself a new player in newer games I have played and not one of those F2P games has taken advantage of me. New players are NOT DUMB. I play Defiance and GW2 and both have a cash shop. I have bought items I liekd and do not feel taken advantage of.

iamunkle, on 16 April 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

*puts extra 65$ into Star Citizen out of spite*

LOL this guy.

iamunkle, on 16 April 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

how bout you make hero mechs available for cbill purchase??!?!?

or is that too ludicrous??!?!?!?

if cbills and mc mix so well?


hmm?

LOL this guy.

[Ngamok]

So true story.

I bought the $60 Founders Package. I got my HBK-4G(F) and 20,000 MC and 2 months premium time (already used this up). When the game went into Open Beta I bought an Atlas for MC, stripped the equipment, and sold it for C-Bills. I outfitted my HBK and used whatever leftover to help buy a CLPT-C1.

Clearly P2W.

[Eglar]

Ngamok, on 16 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

http://www.neimanmar...LACK&ci_gpa=pla
Do people buy these?

Cheap birkin squeezes...

Ngamok, on 16 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

I would consider myself a new player in newer games I have played and not one of those F2P games has taken advantage of me. New players are NOT DUMB. I play Defiance and GW2 and both have a cash shop. I have bought items I liekd and do not feel taken advantage of.

Agreed, I play GW2 too and like to give all my toons fancy legendary weapons lol, But on a serious note: That's exactly the point it doesn't really affect the gameplay of people who chose not to "buy things". Can't see why there are people who get angry other things like that, especially when this game's economy is so simple compared to other games.

And I'm saying that as someone who has grinded up over 300million Cbills.

Edited by Eglar, 16 April 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Ngamok]

Eglar, on 16 April 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Agreed, I play GW2 too and like to give all my toons fancy legendary weapons lol, But on a serious note: That's exactly the point it doesn't really affect the gameplay of people who chose not to "buy things". Can't see why there are people who get angry other things like that, especially when this game's economy is so simple and I'm saying that as someone who has grinded up over 300million Cbills.

I only have Exotics and Ascendant jewelry But I did buy some clothing skins (read:camo and paint in this game) and 2 of the never used up harvesting tools so I don't have to keep buying the mining pick and sickle over and over (read: hero mechs here).

I am up to 86 million C-Bills but I own 68 mechs and my total lifetime C-Bills earned is roughly 450 million.

[Artgathan]

I think PGI might be better served by simply making all equipment available for MC directly (thus simplifying the process from Purchase MC -> Convert to C-Bills -> Purchase Equipment with C-Bills to Purchase MC -> Purchase Equipment with MC). It would also have the advantage of making the monetization more clear to new players (since they would be able to see that they can buy equipment for MC, instead of having to go hunting for C-Bill packages).

Selling something like an XL Engine for 600 MC would work better IMO.

[sC4r]

was wondering when they bring in something like this

while i like it being in game the pricing is off
like post #3 said buying and selling hero jenny will earn you more cbills per $ then any of these packages

[Roadkill]

Almond Brown, on 16 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

So the 25 Million rec'd from the Cadet Bonus doesn't cover this experimentation enough?

How much more than 25 mill does one need to start with?

3 Mastered Atli and enough c-bills to fart around with them ad infinitum? Really?

Exaggerate much? Cadet bonus is ~8 million spread out over 25 missions.

I just bought 3 Banshees and outfitted them. The total came to just shy of 40 million c-bills and I know what I'm doing. 8 million c-bills won't even get and outfit one Atlas. If you need to do some experimenting, especially with engine size, you probably need 15 million per Atlas.

Players who have been around for a long time forget just how expensive equipment is in this game. We all have piles of leftover PPCs and Double Heat Sinks just sitting in inventory, so it isn't expensive for us to tweak Mechs and try different builds.

New players don't have that built-up inventory. It takes a lot of c-bills for them to do any experimenting at all. And since they're new and probably don't know what they're doing, they need to do a lot more experimenting than we do.

So no, the ~8 million Cadet bonus isn't even close to enough.

[Mawai]

Waurgrim, on 15 April 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

Definitely not all the math but just taking the JR7-F(C) as an example since it was already mentioned...

JR7-F(C): 3,067,911 C-Bills for 1450 MC which gets you 2115 C-Bills per MC
Small C-Bill Bundle: 1,100,000 C-Bills for 800 MC which gets you 1375 C-Bills per MC
Medium C-Bills Bundle: 2,400,000 C-Bills for 1600 MC which gets you 1500 C-Bills per MC
Large C-Bills Bundle: 6,500,000 C-Bills for 4000 MC which gets you 1625 C-Bills per MC

I don't think anyone is defending the value of the cbill for MC offerings ... they are terrible ... but I don't see any issue if other players wish to spend their money on them. Though as you mention, buying and selling the Jenner is a better bargain assuming you get 3 mill cbills for it when sold.

[Mawai]

Ngamok, on 16 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

So true story.

I bought the $60 Founders Package. I got my HBK-4G(F) and 20,000 MC and 2 months premium time (already used this up). When the game went into Open Beta I bought an Atlas for MC, stripped the equipment, and sold it for C-Bills. I outfitted my HBK and used whatever leftover to help buy a CLPT-C1.

Clearly P2W.

I'm not sure whether that is sarcasm or not. What you did to generate some cbills to outfit your hunchback isn't pay 2 win since everyone else just needs to play a few more games to generate the same cbills to make the same upgrades to their same HBK. It just takes them longer. Maybe at the very beginning it made a difference since everyone was in the same boat and your actions made you a little more competitive a little faster ... maybe. But I am sure there are folks who played 100 matches the first day and had more cbills in hand than you did after your buy and sell.

So ... I would say no ... buying the best equipment you can with real money is not pay 2 win if another player can obtain exactly the same capabilities by simply playing the game for a much longer time. In the end the playing field is level.

[Calamus]

Almond Brown, on 15 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Some would say those who bought OverLord are morons. Think about that.

there isn't much to think about. Overlord came along with 90 days of premium time (worth about 7,500mc), 12 mechbays (worth 300mc each, or 3,600 total) and 4 mechs that give you c-bills 30% faster when you play them, with 8 other regular mechs (worth somewhere in excess of 36,000mc, conservatively). I won't even count the other, useless (but still worth MC) things that came with overlord, and I'm still looking at an excess of 47,100MC worth, which doesn't count the 30% c-bill boosts I will get when I use those 4 mechs, until the day I stop playing this game. $200 will get you 50,000MC. I paid $100. Compare that to paying $20 for an XL engine, and a double heat sinks upgrade. The return on the investment isn't even a comparison.
Sure, PGI burned us a bit after we bought Overlord. That's exactly why I haven't bought a clan package. But you can't compare buying the Phoenix Package to buying 6mil c-bills for $20. I'll just play my Battlemaster and Shadowhawk and earn the 6mil every few days simply by enjoying playing the game.

[Loc Nar]

Eglar, on 16 April 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

What's wrong with introducing C-Bill purchases? Getting C-bills for real cash has always been in this game, they just made a more direct approach. In fact you are better off on the 1600MC package to buy a CDA-2A(C), which comes with an XL340 (you can sell for 2.75mil) and sell the CDA-2A(C) itself for 500k CBills for a cool 3.25mil instead of 2.4mil for the regular package. (thanks hobowilly)

It is convenience for those who don't wish to grind money if they are short on time or just need a quick chunk. It's not golden ammo or super lasers. It's not priority access or advantageous. It is perfectly reasonable in a F2P game that does not allow In-game Cbill trading between players.

Well, I kind of explained that in the post you quoted. Here's an article that articulates most of what I said but more eloquently.

http://themittani.co...c-bills-bundles

Throwing paywalls into the game while systematically nerfing the economy to death and simultaneously changing yet another position at the time in the process, all in the name of railroading players into paying up rather than providing compelling reasons that make us actually *want to pay... yeah, what's not to like? >_>

[MechFrog1]

Ngamok, on 16 April 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

I would consider myself a new player in newer games I have played and not one of those F2P games has taken advantage of me. New players are NOT DUMB. I play Defiance and GW2 and both have a cash shop. I have bought items I liekd and do not feel taken advantage of.

GW2's cash shop is so superior to MWO's that it's actually pretty insulting to even do the comparison.

[Almond Brown]

Ngamok, on 16 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

So true story.

I bought the $60 Founders Package. I got my HBK-4G(F) and 20,000 MC and 2 months premium time (already used this up). When the game went into Open Beta I bought an Atlas for MC, stripped the equipment, and sold it for C-Bills. I outfitted my HBK and used whatever leftover to help buy a CLPT-C1.

Clearly P2W.

Did you WIN yet?

[Almond Brown]

Roadkill, on 16 April 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Exaggerate much? Cadet bonus is ~8 million spread out over 25 missions.

I just bought 3 Banshees and outfitted them. The total came to just shy of 40 million c-bills and I know what I'm doing. 8 million c-bills won't even get and outfit one Atlas. If you need to do some experimenting, especially with engine size, you probably need 15 million per Atlas.

Players who have been around for a long time forget just how expensive equipment is in this game. We all have piles of leftover PPCs and Double Heat Sinks just sitting in inventory, so it isn't expensive for us to tweak Mechs and try different builds.

New players don't have that built-up inventory. It takes a lot of c-bills for them to do any experimenting at all. And since they're new and probably don't know what they're doing, they need to do a lot more experimenting than we do.

So no, the ~8 million Cadet bonus isn't even close to enough.

My bad on the Cadet bonus level. I forgot. Sue me. Thing is a new player, after 25 games, imho, has not earned the right to play a decked out Atlas. A Medium perhaps, then work your way up one way or the other. Play or MC.