26 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

As is, the magic dorito in this game is too powerful. It is entirely too easy to spot and relay target information back to lance mates and I think that is one of the things that really exaggerates the power of the current longrange meta. It is hard to sneak around a line because it only takes a moment of exposure to pop up a red dorito, thus alerting enemies to the presence of enemies trying to be sneaky and flank.

My proposal is that you should have to equip a C3 system to be able to relay this information in a timely manner. Without the C3 system, you should be able to relay targeting information but it should take significantly longer(than the almost instantaneous amount of time that it takes now).

Doing this will have three effects.

1) It will instantly make scouts a useful commodity.
2) It will instantly make flanking easier to do.
3) It will instantly give brawlers a better chance to close distances and be viable earlier in the match without getting obliterated.

Note, I am not saying that everyone has to equip a C3 system to get the information from lancemates.. but that to get the current level of target information sharing quickly(aka location, ability to lock, information about the mech's loadout, information about the state of the mech), that a mech has to make a tonnage investment to be able to do so.

IMO, the major roadblock to being able to have proper role warfare is both how easy it is to pass along information in this game(for scouts) and how rudimentary electronic role warfare is in this game.

[Mcgral18]

How about a targetting computer for weapons to converge? Balance both sides of things.

[Kesslan]

Honestly I have always felt they need to do something to make the C3 worth having. I have only ever owned one and I promptly stripped it from the mech it came with and have never thought twice about putting it back in. The only reason I've never sold it is on the off hand chance it may some day be actually useful enough to be worth the tonnage.

I mean I've seen it be of some mild use in PUGs but in premade groups we've always relied on voice coms and map co-ordinates. The C3 has never enhanced anything on that end and really it should.

[Foxfire]

This has been an issue I've had since early in closed beta, when I realized that they were giving both the C3 Master and C3 slave as free components of the mech. This has been, IMO, the greatest barrier to a viable scouting role in this game since it makes it entirely too easy to spot and relay information for every mech in the game.

[wanderer]

When I can shoot at things as if I was looking through your viewpoint, it's C3 (not the VOIP, the targeting network system in BT).

Spotting is a whopping +1 to hit if the target is active in TT. Please, be my guest. Increase indirect fire lock-on by the slight amount of time it would take to simulate this.

[Eddrick]

While were at it, give Command Console and Stealth Armor a reason to exist.

ECM doesn't bother me very much, in it's current form. But, it would be nice to give Stealth Armor a reason to exist.

[wanderer]

Eddrick, on 15 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

While were at it, give Command Console and Stealth Armor a reason to exist.

ECM doesn't bother me very much, in it's current form. But, it would be nice to give Stealth Armor a reason to exist.

Stealth armor doesn't exist yet because....well, it's not INVENTED yet.

But much of what it'd basically do is what standard ECM does. Which is stupid scary. 1.5 ton ninja cloaks that shield your entire lance from sensors is madly powerful.

[Foxfire]

wanderer, on 15 April 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

When I can shoot at things as if I was looking through your viewpoint, it's C3 (not the VOIP, the targeting network system in BT).

Spotting is a whopping +1 to hit if the target is active in TT. Please, be my guest. Increase indirect fire lock-on by the slight amount of time it would take to simulate this.

Lore wise, C3 is what allowed mechs to pass information quickly to the lance commander. Right now, we have almost instant spread of information which is absolute BS to scouts and Flankers.

There is no reason to have scouts if anyone can instantly relay information.. and flanking is almost worthless if you don't have to actively try to spot flankers. If you want to have that ability, it should be an investment.. and I'm not talking about module.. but weight investment. You should have to make sacrifices to be able to relay information like that.

wanderer, on 15 April 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Stealth armor doesn't exist yet because....well, it's not INVENTED yet.

But much of what it'd basically do is what standard ECM does. Which is stupid scary. 1.5 ton ninja cloaks that shield your entire lance from sensors is madly powerful.

At least stealth armor comes with a tradeoff.

[Ovion]

Which mechs actually have C3 in MWO?

I don't recall ever seeing.
(Or stealth armour for that matter. And Command Modules are on what.. 2 mech chasis?)

[Foxfire]

To add... I am not sure that it would be a bad idea to tie this into the command console, to give it a use as well. C3 equipped mechs can pass information between C3 mechs(eliminating the master/slave unit dependency) but communicating to a Command Console mech will allow this information to be passed to all mechs. Just as an idea to give these modules a legitimate use while opening up more covert operations, scouting roles, and at least hinting at role warfare(though the command console should have more functionality).

[Foxfire]

Ovion, on 15 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Which mechs actually have C3 in MWO?

I don't recall ever seeing.
(Or stealth armour for that matter. And Command Modules are on what.. 2 mech chasis?)

Every mech currently.

IIRC, all mechs that wanted to have this level of target information sharing had to equip C3 units.. either a slave, if you are a general mech warrior, or a master if you are a commander of some sort(master, company, battalion ect).

In essence, what we have now is every mech being equipped with both the C3 slave and Master as free equipment.

Edited by Foxfire, 15 April 2014 - 06:00 PM.

[wanderer]

Ovion, on 15 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Which mechs actually have C3 in MWO?

I don't recall ever seeing.
(Or stealth armour for that matter. And Command Modules are on what.. 2 mech chasis?)

Zero. It doesn't exist yet, and Command consoles are the single Atlas and that's it right now.

I've always thought the Command Console should unlock limited-use module slots representing the extra sensor finagling the second man in the head can deliver, like giving you room for improved arty/strike accuracy, sensor range, and so on.

Stealth armor is also post-MWO's current era.

[Foxfire]

wanderer, on 15 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Zero. It doesn't exist yet, and Command consoles are the single Atlas and that's it right now.

I've always thought the Command Console should unlock limited-use module slots representing the extra sensor finagling the second man in the head can deliver, like giving you room for improved arty/strike accuracy, sensor range, and so on.

Stealth armor is also post-MWO's current era.

The current target sharing between mechs suggest that each mech is equipped with both a Master and Slave C3 system. Mechs don't typically have this level of target information sharing between them without the C3 network being used.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3

The only difference is that C3 has built in TAG capabilities in lore while the function in the game doesn't.

Edited by Foxfire, 15 April 2014 - 06:05 PM.

[Ovion]

That's what I thought.

But yes, I could honestly live with people having to choose between advanced targetting, and more weight / slots.
Have it 1slot, and 0.5T for a Master OR slave, and 1slot, 1T for a Master + Slave.
Can go in the head.

Then I could choose to just mount a master in my Catapults, just a slave in my Locusts, and both in my Spiders / Centurion.


- Huh, C3i is 2.5T, and 2 slots.

I assume a regular Master would be 2-3T, and I think a Slave is what.. .5-1T?

I haven't played BT in about 5-6 years, and while things are coming back to me, a lot of specifics aren't.

Edited by Ovion, 15 April 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[wanderer]

Foxfire, on 15 April 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

The current target sharing between mechs suggest that each mech is equipped with both a Master and Slave C3 system. Mechs don't typically have this level of target information sharing between them without the C3 network being used.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3

The only difference is that C3 has built in TAG capabilities in lore while the function in the game doesn't.

I could see exactly where any 'Mech was as long as one of my unit had LOS, even with double-blind rules in TT. I knew precisely where it was, it's range to me, etc. etc. I could even spot with someone else's LOS, that's indirect fire.

So, what function in MWO does normal spotting shows itself as exclusive to C3?

Ovion, on 15 April 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

- Huh, C3i is 2.5T, and 2 slots.

I assume a regular Master would be 2-3T, and I think a Slave is what.. .5-1T?

I haven't played BT in about 5-6 years, and while things are coming back to me, a lot of specifics aren't.

A C3 master is 5 tons, a slave 1 ton (and they have to pre-designate in a network AND 1 master generally only links to 3 slaves).

C3i splits the network up and links 6 units together instead.

Edited by wanderer, 15 April 2014 - 06:40 PM.

[Foxfire]

Only I am talking Lore.

Quote

C3 Network. Basically a special tight-beam communications network, they are used to share targeting data between 'Mechs and Combat Vehicles. The original C3 Networks were introduced in 3050 by the Draconis Combine^[1].
The C3 Networks that exist today are geared towards the smallest level of tactical command; this means that each 'Mech in a Lance (or a ComGuard Level I for C3i) can share targeting data. There have been efforts to expand this targeting coordination to the Company level by using a 'Mech with a pair of C3 Command Units, like the Draconis Combine's Tai-sho.^[2]
A C3 Network of C3 Command units and C3 Slave units cannot share targeting data with units using a C3i system.

What we essentially have, as a free attachment, is a C3i unit on every mech.

You also have to consider that in the TT, rounds are over 6 seconds. I am not proposing that you cannot relay target information without a C3 system. Only that the current level of information relaying(near instantaneous for reporting that a target has been highlighted) be significantly delayed without utilization of a C3 system on the targeting mech. I am not even proposing that this relay be denied for non-C3 mechs, either.. only that to be able to achieve the speed of information reporting that is currently in the game should require an investment of crit slots and weight on the targeting mech.

Edited by Foxfire, 15 April 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[wanderer]

Clearly people don't clue here.

C3's sharing of targeting data is far, far beyond what you get in MWO.

What C3 does in tabletop is effectively let you "shoot" from the point of anywhere in the network.

It'd be like having someone 50m away and letting everyone shoot through his screen with their own weapons. Even if they happened to barely be in range, you'd be precision aiming like the target was at 50m instead. That's what "shared targeting data" means.

A 'Mech showing up for all units on a side is an instant action for tabletop without C3 or anything like it- if one unit can see a 'Mech, all of them know where it is immediately. Zero delay.

MWO's system is nothing even remotely like C3 in it's effectiveness, but mirrors LOS rules actually rather effectively.

[Foxfire]

Again, TT vs Universe.

Anyways, practical question is.. without having such a change, how do you propose giving scouts a legitimate role in this game?

Fact of the matter is that the magic dorito is too powerful and omnipresent to allow for any form of real diversity in role warfare as it is currently implemented so how would you fix it?

The current game design only works if your only goal ever is to funnel people into pre-determined pathways to let them slug it out at a choke point(essentially what happens due to how easy it is to spot targets and couter-spot non-ECM scouts and flankers{on most maps}).

Edited by Foxfire, 15 April 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

let other players only see mechs that are targeted?
oh wait is that how it works right now?
then change nothing?

[Foxfire]

Mazzyplz, on 15 April 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

let other players only see mechs that are targeted?
oh wait is that how it works right now?
then change nothing?

Nah, add a requirement to do what we can currently do. My argument is that the usefulness of dedicated scouts is mitigated(outside of the very early initial phase of 12 man drops) by the ease at which every mech can spot enemies and relay information.. especially with the ease at which non-ECM scouts can be counter-spotted.

Essentially, if you want to keep the current ability to relay information to your lance and people on your side at your current capability, you need to invest space and tonnage to do so instead of getting it as a freebee.

Edited by Foxfire, 15 April 2014 - 07:37 PM.