51 replies to this topic

[TygerLily]

Heat affecting torso twist and targeting acquisition is a fun idea. It doesn't have to be massive:

90% or higher -2.5% twist speed, 1.75% longer to get targeting info

75% to 89% -1.5% twist speed, 1% longer to get targeting info

50% to 74% .5% twist speed, .5% longer to get targeting info

Small changes will have an effect without being a massive concern...

For example, in Planetside 2's update today, they reduced area on one of their explosive weapons by .5 meters...small but subtlety changes the game (every so often a dude will survive when he wouldn't' have and get off that one more rocket to kill a tank, or whatever). Same for MWO: generally, gameplay would feel the same but every so often the guy with less heat will have a tiny edge. I like that.

I do also like the current system where certain variants of a chassis have differences that you can feel in the piloting...

PS, I just made those numbers up from thin air...even they might be too high...

Edited by TygerLily, 16 April 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Ultimatum X, on 16 April 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

No, that's really not what I see. The long range game stays the same, as you say. No real impact. The short range game becomes even more prohibitive. The short range game is already extremely high heat, this would basically cripple it. I fail to see how this change would add fun to the game, it looks like a level of annoyance right up there with Ghost Heat. I have no interest in mechanics that do not add more fun and instead look to decrease fun and viability of some builds/mech chassis.

Well, I'm not saying that we can do this and then call it a day. The short game is suffering simply because the weapons that cater to the short game aren't working appropriately. AC10s and 20s have hit registry issues, SRMs are a flip of the coin as to whether they'll land and the damage is paltry, and both Small and Medium Lasers are hotter than necessary.

You say that you fail to see how this would add fun to the game. Fun isn't the point but rather limiting game action and increasing TTK. If your mech becomes harder to handle and your ability to put all of your shots into one spot becomes more difficult, then people live longer. Remember, heat is an intrical part of the game and yet you don't need to worry about it until you're about to shut down. Think of it less about fun and more about gaining fun because you lived longer.

[Bishop Steiner]

xengk, on 16 April 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

I sorta like the ball lightning PPC, although they are hard as ball to hit anything on dial-up.

As to mech survival, have you even pilot a Nova in MW2:Mercs?
Those thing are extremely vicious medium mech that tore through mechs it encounter in seconds.

Im looking forward to receiving mine from the Clan pack. (ghost heat be damned!)

the ball would have been fine if the projectile wasn't so slow. I remember the one city level on MW2 where JF Summoners are firing PPCs like spam, and it was so laughably easy to dodge them, and then LRM them to death in retaliation.

As for the Nova, heck in MW3, I would slap 10 IS MLasers on it, and suddenly heat was a not issue. Chainfire away and knee cap everything that moved in seconds.

[Ultimax]

Trauglodyte, on 16 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Fun isn't the point but rather limiting game action

Fun is always the point!

Limiting game action is not fun imo, and I don't think the game really needs to be slowed down.

I'm ok with TTK where it is, the times I die fast are the times I made a blunder with positioning or misjudged how many opponents were in an area. (That's pilot error, and that's fine imo).

I think most of the TTK complaints actually come from map design, spawn placement, and mission objectives (or lack there of).

Trauglodyte, on 16 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

If your mech becomes harder to handle and your ability to put all of your shots into one spot becomes more difficult, then people live longer.

This is what I call "balance by frustration" or "balance by annoyance".

As your mech becomes harder to handle, it also becomes harder to torso twist and defend yourself.

A change like this could also have side effects like penalizing PUG players who can't coordinate even more in favor of premade lances/teams who can count down + alpha strike 1 target out of existence and then hide to cooldown.

Trauglodyte, on 16 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Remember, heat is an intrical part of the game and yet you don't need to worry about it until you're about to shut down. Think of it less about fun and more about gaining fun because you lived longer.

If I had to worry about every ounce of heat constantly, I would just retire the few brawler builds I have and just turn everything into a long range, AC focused sniper build.

One that doesn't need to worry about twisting in a brawl to spread damage.

It's already the largely superior design, this change would just punish the already risky niche playstyle even further.



I've also asked what would be the incentive to slotting massive 35+ ton engines on Assault mechs, because a few extra kph really isn't an incentive at all.

The only reason I run anything higher than a 300 on some of my Atlas builds for example, is because I intend to brawl with them and prefer the added twist ability.


I sacrifice firepower and/or tonnage that could go to more heatsinks for that.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 April 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Trauglodyte, on 16 April 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Long range vs short game doesn't matter because the heat is all the same. Your typical poptarter runs 2 PPCs + whatever else. Heat isn't a factor because you're hiding behind cover and blasting away until you get into the critical area only to stop firing. You vent heat as your position and inbetween volleys. The Short Range game is the same because you're not firing as you move into position. The point is that you need to manage your heat regardless of the range you're fighting because it causes detrimental impacts to your ability to move, aim, and fire. That, you know, slows the game down.



Sounds like a childish rant about someone that can't fight back. For your information, I don't run meta builds. I have one and that is my Victor which is collecting dust as I play the mechs that I enjoy more: my Mediums. I find it funny that you have to resort to attacks because, at the core, you just don't want to manage your own heat either. The whole point of HEAT in Battle Tech is to be a combat limiter. Whether it makes you more vulnerable because you're not as agile or it makes you less accurate, the whole point is for you to protect your mech at all costs. Roasting yourself to go buck wild on the battlefield without repercussions isn't combat.

bwahahaha way to turn this on me, if you want to oversink your chassis that's great why don't you;
why should the stalker and awesome pay for your stupid idea while the victor, jager and other ballistic mechs don't.

please try to put your two neurons together and make a coherent thought that looks beyond what you want to pilot

what you typed there is pretty asinine

YES! lets punish energy boats, the most broken of all chassis (i guess in your mind), while the heat neutral autocannon weapons just jumpjet and shoot away - if you were working in game balance you'd starve - that's not what the current game needs

if they were to implement what you say, firing just two er ppcs or the stock loadout of the awesome 8q would yield massive penalties, everyone would just use green lasers and the higher tier energy weapons would be pretty much useless. unless you lower the heat on all of them your suggestion is delusional - so what, because you don't use large pulse or ppc you don't want anybody to use them

in case you didn't know (because you likely don't!) riding on 99% heat shooting one weapon at a time isn't easy and it isn't very powerful either, a lot less than shooting gauss in fact. but it IS FUN.
your previous comment where you assert that fun is not the important part just invalidates most of your arguments; to limit player's ability just for the sake of limiting and not because there's any sort of need, yea... great balancing move there

Edited by Mazzyplz, 16 April 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I don't really care if engine size or heat changes torso twist but I will say this. Torso twisting to defend against damage is in my opinion the most interesting/skill based part of combat in this game. I feel it is pretty good now. Do not ask to nerf it. I don't want fighting to come down to staring matches.

[Daekar]

I think the OP has a good point, and it's something I've thought of before. It would make maintaining the identity of the weight classes and chassis variants easier and prevent balancing issues.

I'm not sure that the heat aspect is necessary. Would be interesting, though.

[Ultimax]

Daekar, on 16 April 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

I think the OP has a good point, and it's something I've thought of before. It would make maintaining the identity of the weight classes and chassis variants easier and prevent balancing issues.

I'm sorry but what issue are you seeing?


Jenner
250
Torso Yaw Speed 142 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 80 °/s

Jenner
275
Torso Yaw Speed 157 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 88 °/s

Jenner
300
Torso Yaw Speed 171 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 96 °/s

Shadowhawk
275
Torso Yaw Speed 125 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 56 °/s

Shadowhawk
300
Torso Yaw Speed 136 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 61 °/s

Cataphract
300
Torso Yaw Speed 85 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 48 °/s

Cataphract
325
Torso Yaw Speed 92 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 52 °/s

Cataphract
340
Torso Yaw Speed 97 °/s
Torso Pitch Speed 54 °/s





Formula
Turn Speed = 11.25 x Engine / Tons
Torso Yaw (Twist) Speed = 20 x Engine / Tons
Top Speed = 16.2 x Engine / Tons





References:

http://mwomercs.com/...-mech-rotation/

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 April 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

Ultimatum X, on 16 April 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

I'm sorry but what issue are you seeing?

...

Formula
Turn Speed = 11.25 x Engine / Tons
Torso Yaw (Twist) Speed = 20 x Engine / Tons
Top Speed = 16.2 x Engine / Tons

References:

http://mwomercs.com/...-mech-rotation/

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

The fact that you can break it down by means of a formula means that room for unique identity within a weight class in terms of torso mobility is limited entirely by range of motion. With the freedom of customization offered even within the hardpoint system, 'mechs' unique identities are highly diluted, and giving them a unique feel at the real root of gameplay, the torso twist, will really reinforce the 'mech's unique identity at a core level.

The heat to torso twist is really a separate but related issue in regards to precision gunplay, but does factor in here. 'Mechs designed as energy boats could have less torso twist speed falloff as heat increases. The Awesome, for instance, might retain almost full mobility until shutdown, while a ballistic 'mech might suffer worse at mid range heat.

Again, by untying the torso twist from engine size, you really open a whole new way to balance 'mechs against each other and create a new layer of identity for each chassis.

[Ultimax]

GreyGriffin, on 16 April 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

The fact that you can break it down by means of a formula means that room for unique identity within a weight class in terms of torso mobility is limited entirely by range of motion.

Actually, no. It just means the devs can add quirks to each chassis & variant - which in many cases they did.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#mechs_quirks




So to recap:

1) Twisting Speed (Torso Yaw Speed) & Torso Yaw Speed formula means there is clear differentiation based on both Mech Weight and Engine size, with smaller mechs getting much larger proportional benefits.*

2) Mechs already have quirks affecting some (not always) of these attributes.



Hopefully no one else will try to move the goal posts on me.

GreyGriffin, on 16 April 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

With the freedom of customization offered even within the hardpoint system, 'mechs' unique identities are highly diluted, and giving them a unique feel at the real root of gameplay, the torso twist, will really reinforce the 'mech's unique identity at a core level.

This has nothing to do with the heat system, and is already covered under mech quirks.




If you want to make a separate thread about what quirks you want specific chassis to have, be my guest.

(Is any of that even canon? I can't find such details at sarna wiki).


It's completely irrelevant when it comes to how twist speed is calculated, and I think it exceedingly unlikely that the entire system suddenly would get revamped to add a system that doesn't really add fun or value to the game for the average player - and probably would have more idiosyncrasies than the one we have now.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 April 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Daekar]

Ultimatum X, on 16 April 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

I'm sorry but what issue are you seeing?

Ummm... didn't you notice that they nerfed the ever-loving CRAP out of Victor agility because their engine formula broke balance? I believe there was a quote about how assaults didn't feel big and lumbering. Did you think that issue arose because their ground speed was too fast?

[Ultimax]

Daekar, on 16 April 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Ummm... didn't you notice that they nerfed the ever-loving CRAP out of Victor agility because their engine formula broke balance? I believe there was a quote about how assaults didn't feel big and lumbering. Did you think that issue arose because their ground speed was too fast?

Yes I did, I'm against that nerf and I've posted it in the main thread on the issue.

The problem has nothing to do with engine speeds or engine sizes.


That issue arose because it was a misguided nerf due to poptarting.

Except they didnt actually make a dent in poptarting.

Instead of waiting to see how the JJ nerf would tone down agility in combat they added a 20 ton penalty to the Victor.


Here's an example:

Atlas = 100 Tons
350 Engine

350 x 20 / 100 = 70 degrees per second Torso Yaw Speed (twisting)
(you can confirm it on Smurfy's)


Victor = 80 tons
350 Engine

350 x 20 / 80 = 87.5 degrees per second Torso Yaw Speed (twisting)

That Torso Twist speed is completely in line,

75T: Orion w/350 = 93 degrees per second
80T: Victor w/350 = 87.5 degrees per second
80T: Pretty Baby w/ 350 = 96 degrees per second (bad idea, but its here to illustrate, take not of the Orion)
85T: Battle Maser w/350 = 82 degrees per second
95T: Banshee = 73 degrees per second
100T: Atlas w/ 350 = 70 degrees per second


Looks in line to me...except that's not the Victor's current torso yaw speed...




350 x 20 / 80 +20ton penalty = 70 degrees per second Torso Yaw Speed
(you can confirm it on Smurfy's)


Same 350 engine, worse than mech's that are heavier than it.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 April 2014 - 09:13 PM.