57 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

I posted my ideas here in december, but It was/is in the wrong forum section:
http://mwomercs.com/...istic-tweaking/
And after a few iterations and a lot of before/after graphs in there, this is what I had come up with:

[xX PUG Xx]

Cimarb, having read your posts above I would whole heartedly put my vote behind the autocannon ideas. Very well thought out and explained, it also adds a much needed layer of "meaning" to each of the AC classes and would make weapon choice more in depth.

The tie in to CW can only help to give more meaning to capturing and holding specific planets/manufacturing plants. This concept could be carried over to missile/energy weapons but the ever present issue of balance would need to be addressed in the same sensible and well thought out fashion as you have shown above.

I believe adding this layer of involvement/choice to the game could go a long way to bringing in new player and more importantly keeping those players interested over the long term.

TL/DR

PGI should talk to Cimarb about weapon balance, that guys got some good ideas.

Edited by xX PUG Xx, 21 April 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[Cimarb]

xX PUG Xx, on 21 April 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Cimarb, having read your posts above I would whole heartedly put my vote behind the autocannon ideas. Very well thought out and explained, it also adds a much needed layer of "meaning" to each of the AC classes and would make weapon choice more in depth.

The tie in to CW can only help to give more meaning to capturing and holding specific planets/manufacturing plants. This concept could be carried over to missile/energy weapons but the ever present issue of balance would need to be addressed in the same sensible and well thought out fashion as you have shown above.

I believe adding this layer of involvement/choice to the game could go a long way to bringing in new player and more importantly keeping those players interested over the long term.

TL/DR

PGI should talk to Cimarb about weapon balance, that guys got some good ideas.

I appreciate that vote of confidence. I just hope PGI is going to at least give a manufacturer variant system a chance.

[Graugger]

Cimarb, on 21 April 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

I appreciate that vote of confidence. I just hope PGI is going to at least give a manufacturer variant system a chance.

In Soviet Comstar, manufacturer variant system give PGI a chance.

A chance to do something right at least

[Agro Man]

I really wish they hadnt nerfed Ac2's.... they just arnt as good.. tho I must say they still are pretty good! But what I hate is that PGi is nerfing all the good weapons instead of buffing or making new weapons. The way they do it is that if you find a really good build,a build that has good heat,range, and firepower ( DPS or alpha) then its a "unbalenced weapon". thats not cool. I mean do you think that anyone liked the Germans great tactics and weapons during WW2? No nobody did. But they did figure out ways to counter those tactics. they didnt ask the Germans to stop bombing London. or to stop using Panzer Tanks. They just countered them affectivly. So say your Ac5 and PPC build is good. they dont buff things to make it not as good they nerf it too make it "balenced" so your genius build is gonna be sracped cuz its too good"

Edited by Agro Man, 25 April 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[Graugger]

Yup

[Joseph Mallan]

Agro Man, on 25 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

I really wish they hadnt nerfed Ac2's.... they just arnt as good.. tho I must say they still are pretty good! But what I hate is that PGi is nerfing all the good weapons instead of buffing or making new weapons. The way they do it is that if you find a really good build,a build that has good heat,range, and firepower ( DPS or alpha) then its a "unbalenced weapon". thats not cool. I mean do you think that anyone liked the Germans great tactics and weapons during WW2? No nobody did. But they did figure out ways to counter those tactics. they didnt ask the Germans to stop bombing London. or to stop using Panzer Tanks. They just countered them affectivly. So say your Ac5 and PPC build is good. they dont buff things to make it not as good they nerf it too make it "balenced" so your genius build is gonna be sracped cuz its too good"

I would hope that the Nerf was phase one of nerfing all ballistic ranges. I love my ACs but they reach to far!

[Graugger]

AC/2 - Cooldown - 2 / Heat - 1.5 / Range - 420 / Max Range - 840 / Speed - 900 / DPS 1
AC/5 - Cooldown - 2.5 / Heat - 2.5 / Range - 340 / Max Range - 680 / Speed - 825 / DPS 2
AC/10 - Cooldown - 4 / Heat - 6 / Range - 280 / Max Range - 560 / Speed - 720 / DPS 2.5
AC/20 - Cooldown - 6 / Heat - 10 / Range - 150 / Max Range - 300 / Speed - 475 / DPS 3.33

Edited by Graugger, 25 April 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[Bobzilla]

ACs out perform energy weapons. PPCs out perform other energy weapons. I would say it's the lack of heat giving AC's the advantage, but the PPC proves it's the pinpont damge aspect, not the heat that is the real difference.

That being said, no Clan weapons are going to do pinpont damage (laser longer beam, acs burst, cept for maybe the PPC, but I doubt that). So the balance of Clan vs IS weapons is going to be pinpont vs spread damage.

So IS ACs can't be made to do burst fire because that is what clan weapons do, but for less tons. So really when Paul says that the weapons are almost balanced and there will only be micro changes, he's talking about the clan tech being in the game as well and they've picked a direction there is no going back from due to the amount of balancing that would have to go on.

IS tech will need that relatively cool pinpont damage to compete against clans, it isn't going to change, for better or worse.

[Cimarb]

Agro Man, on 25 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

I really wish they hadnt nerfed Ac2's.... they just arnt as good.. tho I must say they still are pretty good! But what I hate is that PGi is nerfing all the good weapons instead of buffing or making new weapons. The way they do it is that if you find a really good build,a build that has good heat,range, and firepower ( DPS or alpha) then its a "unbalenced weapon". thats not cool. I mean do you think that anyone liked the Germans great tactics and weapons during WW2? No nobody did. But they did figure out ways to counter those tactics. they didnt ask the Germans to stop bombing London. or to stop using Panzer Tanks. They just countered them affectivly. So say your Ac5 and PPC build is good. they dont buff things to make it not as good they nerf it too make it "balenced" so your genius build is gonna be sracped cuz its too good"

Looking at it in real-world terms, what DID happen to the Germans after WWII? They were nerfed almost into oblivion, that's what! Just be glad they didn't treat the AC2 like the Japanese instead...

While I understand your reasoning (buff, don't nerf), it isn't feasible to do that usually. You have to find a baseline for weapons in general, and then nerf or buff to bring the other weapons in line with that base. Otherwise, you wind up with power inflation that will make all weapons do immense damage and the TTK will be a matter of seconds, which won't be fun for anyone (well, except maybe Joseph...)

[Reno Blade]

I think the whole normalization is quite good and still leaves the AC2 in a very good spot.
Instead of reducing the AC2 to 2 dps and AC5 to 3 dps, they kept the AC2 at 3 dps and only lowered the extreme-range a bit, which is nothing big, as you can't really do much after 1000m anyway.

The AC2 and AC5 are now both 3 dps, but the AC2 is lighter and spreads the damage more, so they are different, but both worth their tonnage.
With the AC10 at 4 dps and the AC20 at 5 dps, they all have a good differenciation and a good place for each.

I would prefere the IS ACs to have burst fire as Paul described in the latest Mech Devs And Beer NGNG Podcast for the Clan UACs to spread AC damage a bit more in generall.

[Cimarb]

Reno Blade, on 25 April 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

I think the whole normalization is quite good and still leaves the AC2 in a very good spot.

I would prefere the IS ACs to have burst fire as Paul described in the latest Mech Devs And Beer NGNG Podcast for the Clan UACs to spread AC damage a bit more in generall.

Totally agree. He did make it at least sound like that is the long term plan, but I may have just been hearing what I wanted to hear. I admit I got a little overly excited when he said Clan ACs would be burst fire, so it may have just been my hopes going too far after that...

[Coralld]

Can someone provide a link to that pod cast? I would very much like to know more.

If clans do get burst fire in the way that I am thinking of then I might actually get my self a Clan mech simply for that.

I still say all ACs, both IS and Clan, should be burst fire though. Perhaps IS ACs can fire fewer shells per trigger pull where as Clan ACs fire more.

Oh, also, all ACs should have their max range reduced like the AC2.

Edited by Coralld, 25 April 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Cimarb]

Coralld, on 25 April 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Can someone provide a link to that pod cast? I would very much like to know more.

If clans do get burst fire in the way that I am thinking of then I might actually get my self a Clan mech simply for that.

I still say all ACs, both IS and Clan, should be burst fire though. Perhaps IS ACs can fire fewer shells per trigger pull where as Clan ACs fire more.

Oh, also, all ACs should have their max range reduced like the AC2.

Here ya go

[Coralld]

Cimarb, on 25 April 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

Here ya go

Thank you very much, Cimarb, very informative.

PGI states they have no problem with 30 to 35 alpha damage. which I can agree and most people would also agree. The problem is when its all FLD (Front Load Damage) given the PPC+AC pinpoint alpha meta is what people have an issue with. If PPCs and ACs had a mechanic that could cause them to spread damage then it wouldn't be a problem.

Edited by Coralld, 25 April 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Yeah, if all ACs would be burst, the AC+PPC combos main punch would be the PPCs (still 20 damage for 20 heat with 2PPCs).
With 2PPC 2AC5 having a 5-round burst, it would be 20+ (2 to 10) damage depending on movement of the target and distance.
Even with 2-3 round bursts it would be better than what we have now.

And the biggest front loaded alpha without any negative side-effect would come from the PPCs and the first AC shells of the burst, reducing the instant-death thread quite a bit.

[Coralld]

Reno Blade, on 25 April 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Yeah, if all ACs would be burst, the AC+PPC combos main punch would be the PPCs (still 20 damage for 20 heat with 2PPCs).
With 2PPC 2AC5 having a 5-round burst, it would be 20+ (2 to 10) damage depending on movement of the target and distance.
Even with 2-3 round bursts it would be better than what we have now.

And the biggest front loaded alpha without any negative side-effect would come from the PPCs and the first AC shells of the burst, reducing the instant-death thread quite a bit.

Agreed. Tack on the Lightning Arc mechanic, which would make the standard PPC be a 6, 2, 2, weapon which is still 10 damage with the two 2 damage arc points having a X% for through damage and a 6 FLD would reduce it even further.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

Cimarb, on 16 April 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

...
* Man-made Lightning (random arc spread): The PPC shoots a lightning bolt that hits the target point for {6} damage, then arcs to two random spots anywhere on the mech for an additional {2} points each. For example, if the PPC hits the front RT, it does {6} points of damage, then arcs to the rear LT for {2} points of damage and the RL for another {2} points of damage, for a total of {10} points of damage. (OPTIONAL: the lightning can hit internal structure even if their is armor remaining on that section)
...

Yes, yes, YES!
Was thinking something just like this!