470 replies to this topic

[Hollow Earth]

I like the idea of having weapons all share a single or at least similar sizes. It would make the mechs look as sensible as their loadouts. i mean, who puts PPC's on a light? except Kurita and their panthers but they are kinda weird like that.

[Curccu]

That massive PPC barrel on locust looks F******* AWESOME!

[_Ares_]

I also think weapon sizes should be the same on all mechs. That way you balance a tiny light sporting PPCs to be easier to hit at least, speacialy from affar.

[Rubidiy]

if you want to laugh really hard, compare AC/2 in a Firestarter and in a Banshee.

[Tombstoner]

Jaka Ursic, on 22 April 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

I also think weapon sizes should be the same on all mechs. That way you balance a tiny light sporting PPCs to be easier to hit at least, speacialy from affar.

Part of the issue is that mech sizes shouldn't be that much different in height. the atlas and locust should be comparable in over all height its just that the atlas is sooo much broader and deeper to account for the the increased tonnage.... all mechs should be sized based on there density.

A huge issue is with the way PGI ported TT is they left out mech size/moment speed interactions over all ranges.. This is a critical design flaw.

What happens is small fast mechs get a huge defensive buff at long to extreme ranges and then add in hit registration issues. PGI treats it all linearly but its in fact a polynomial interaction with consequences for weapons balance. then add in skill based targeting and thus you need small torsos and massive arms and legs to make mechs as similar as possible to minimize the scaling effecs on combat effectiveness.

PGI has been square pegging the wrong hole ever since they abandoned convergence in closed beta.

[General Taskeen]

Its almost like PGI forgot about all of these:

http://www.sarna.net...i/Snub_Nose_PPC

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_PPC

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_PPC

Those look like light ppc's on those small Mechs, lol. So what will an actual "light ppc" rendition be, the size of a small laser lol?

The regular PPC/ER PPC should be enourmous even for a light mech:

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 April 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Mavairo]

General Taskeen, on 22 April 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Its almost like PGI forgot about all of these:

http://www.sarna.net...i/Snub_Nose_PPC

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_PPC

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_PPC

Those look like light ppc's on those small Mechs, lol. So what will an actual "light ppc" rendition be, the size of a small laser lol?

The regular PPC/ER PPC should be enourmous even for a light mech:

What mech is this. THAT should be in the game. (if that is a Firestarter, then PGI went and *****ed up the Firestarter in so many levels that they should just /uninstall the art dept)

[moneyBURNER]

Yet another example of ridiculous game design, where the straightforward solution of hardpoint sizes would partially or fully address the issues of weapon balance/boating, mech variant uniqueness and diversity, hitbox fairness, and aesthetics and realism.

It's also inconsistent and bizarre that some mechs like the already oversized catapult have to carry ugly bolt-ons for weapons that should fit in the standard sections, while others have magically miniaturized weapons with no downsides. I would think the sensible thing to do would be to define the sizes of the weapons with a reasonable variance, and then go about integrating them into all the mech models, such that a small mech like the firestarter should have the massive, awkward-looking extensions. Otherwise, apply the quirk system to those weapons to differentiate a proper PPC on a K2 from the peashooters on other mechs.

Edited by moneyBURNER, 22 April 2014 - 07:52 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Well this is how I picture a PPC commando looking


I did build a PPC commando... and painted it 2 different blues to try to match the above

[Joseph Mallan]

General Taskeen, on 22 April 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Its almost like PGI forgot about all of these:

http://www.sarna.net...i/Snub_Nose_PPC

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_PPC

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_PPC

Those look like light ppc's on those small Mechs, lol. So what will an actual "light ppc" rendition be, the size of a small laser lol?

The regular PPC/ER PPC should be enourmous even for a light mech:

That is Beautiful!

Fierostetz, on 22 April 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Well this is how I picture a PPC commando looking


I did build a PPC commando... and painted it 2 different blues to try to match the above

Far to large to be a Commando!

[falknir]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone here pointing out design inconsistencies.  In BattleTech lore, many of the weapon systems are manufactured by many different organizations and then grouped into generic weapon classes based on end-performance.  These many weapon models from these different manufacturers can have a completely different approach to reach the (for example) AC/5 or PPC weapon-classification with very different rates of fire, caliber, salvo counts, etc.

Right now, MWO uses the very generic weapon-classification as the sole weapon of choose.  It is very likely until they introduce specific models, we will see that weapon design inconsistency between mechs will remain.  Love it or hate it, this has been an issue in multiple games based on the BattleTech IP.

Edited by falknir, 22 April 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[Featherwood]

It's futile to kick dead horse - PGI is just not capable for A class game development. Moreover, they have sacked their community manager for slacking, so no one is actually reading what do you type here. Their director is on the island and is too occupied by his twitter. I haven't mentioned Paul negatively, because I wasn't able to find proper reason to kick him this time, but do not doubt, I tried very hard.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Featherwood, on 22 April 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

...they have sacked their community manager for slacking...

Wait, what? When did this happen?

[DONTOR]

Zervziel, on 21 April 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Another example of ******** weapon sizing is the thunderbolt. Put a gauss rifle in mine and was surprised to see it was about the size of a freaking Ac2.

Its the very reason I hate T bolts, Toothpick sized CANNONS. Cant take them seriously, I want to love the 9S, but I am uncapable.

[Dennis de Koning]

Allow me to address this issue.
In the past, we had very little time to pump out 'Mechs and so, although weapons had a standardized look, their sizes were often skewed.
Most of the time, while building a 'Mech, the modellers would refer to a completed one (within it's class) for scaling, from which the weapons would be taken. The risk with this technique is the passing forward of possible scaling oddities and over time, creating bigger and bigger scaling inconsistencies.
Since we began retrofitting the 'Mechs to have dynamic visual load-out swapping, we have since created a single Weapons file (with all models being standardized in design and scale) for the modelling team to resource.
Now the caveat: Considering the drastic scaling differences between some light and assault 'Mechs, the weapons (in the file mentioned) are standardized per class. That is, an AC20 for a light 'Mech will still be smaller than one for an Assault, but not by much; ~1-4%/class depending on the weapon. This is necessary as some smaller 'Mechs just don't have the real-estate to carry an assault sized weapon, as well as that sometimes, it just looks goofy.

As the team still must continue to pump out 'Mechs on a regular bases, the modifications will occur when each modeller has the bandwidth so don't expect a global change over night.
Also, the 'Mechs that have a hero variant added will have the entire line retrofitted at the same time so it won't be uncommon to see newer 'Mechs being addressed prior to older ones.

I hope this clears thing up a bit.

Thanks,

DdK

[Bishop Steiner]

Dennis de Koning, on 22 April 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Allow me to address this issue.
In the past, we had very little time to pump out 'Mechs and so, although weapons had a standardized look, their sizes were often skewed.
Most of the time, while building a 'Mech, the modellers would refer to a completed one (within it's class) for scaling, from which the weapons would be taken. The risk with this technique is the passing forward of possible scaling oddities and over time, creating bigger and bigger scaling inconsistencies.
Since we began retrofitting the 'Mechs to have dynamic visual load-out swapping, we have since created a single Weapons file (with all models being standardized in design and scale) for the modelling team to resource.
Now the caveat: Considering the drastic scaling differences between some light and assault 'Mechs, the weapons (in the file mentioned) are standardized per class. That is, an AC20 for a light 'Mech will still be smaller than one for an Assault, but not by much; ~1-4%/class depending on the weapon. This is necessary as some smaller 'Mechs just don't have the real-estate to carry an assault sized weapon, as well as that sometimes, it just looks goofy.

As the team still must continue to pump out 'Mechs on a regular bases, the modifications will occur when each modeller has the bandwidth so don't expect a global change over night.
Also, the 'Mechs that have a hero variant added will have the entire line retrofitted at the same time so it won't be uncommon to see newer 'Mechs being addressed prior to older ones.

I hope this clears thing up a bit.

Thanks,

DdK

I appreciate the input, but I am a little confused, as the PPC on the Locust IS markedly larger than the ones on the Firestarter. Does it get some further remodeling to fit the location? And please pull up the in game models of the Banshee S and the Firestarter and tell me that is a 1-4% difference in PPC size.

And just a subjective opinion question, does anyone really think the K2 looks BETTER with tiny arm ppcs?

Also, wish you had inputted on the primary thread, not a seed one, like this. The Itty Bitty K2 PPC thread is kinda where it's at, lol!

plus you gotta admit...big PPC Locust is just cuter! (and I fear for my future urban mech getting a "light mech scaled" AC that makes it look like a trashcan with a BB gun. )

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 April 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

And please pull up the in game models of the Banshee S and the Firestarter and tell me that is a 1-4% difference in PPC size.

Assuming maximum size differential across weight classes, a Banshee would have size 100, then you go to 96 for the step down to a heavy, size 92 for the step down to a medium, and you wind up at size 88 for a light. That's a 12% reduction in size; is that closer to what you observe in difference between the two mechs?

[Bishop Steiner]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 22 April 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Assuming maximum size differential across weight classes, a Banshee would have size 100, then you go to 96 for the step down to a heavy, size 92 for the step down to a medium, and you wind up at size 88 for a light. That's a 12% reduction in size; is that closer to what you observe in difference between the two mechs?

you tell me:


In game model to in game model. That look like 12% to you? Got any math and software whizzes who can measure it?

[Dennis de Koning]

Assuming the largest is 100%, the smallest would be ~92%.
If my memory serves, I believe the values are similar to this: L[90-92.4], M[92.6-95.4], H[95.6-98.4], A[98.6-101]
These are extremes as in some cases the scaling will be almost unnoticeable.
As for missiles, all missile ports will be the same size, only the depth of the boxes will vary.

DdK

[Bishop Steiner]

Dennis de Koning, on 22 April 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Assuming the largest is 100%, the smallest would be ~92%.
If my memory serves, I believe the values are similar to this: L[90-92.4], M[92.6-95.4], H[95.6-98.4], A[98.6-101]
These are extremes as in some cases the scaling will be almost unnoticeable.
As for missiles, all missile ports will be the same size, only the depth of the boxes will vary.

DdK

exhibit B. What percent difference would you mark that at?

Guys ( I know you work hard, and are pretty busy), I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it is pretty egregious in some cases, and we have been trying to tell you that since pretty much the time you made the change on the K2.

If nothing else shouldn't it be food for thought before doing it to FUTURE mechs?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 April 2014 - 12:02 PM.