79 replies to this topic

[Fiona Marshe]

As I suggested in another thread, it may be time for a complete overhaul of extended ranges across the board.

Ballistics = 2x Optimum Range
Energy = 1.5x Optimum Range.

Makes the dropoff of both more significant and makes the damage/range tradeoff more visible (such as the current AC20>AC10 damage at the AC10 Optimum range).

[Graugger]

Fiona Marshe, on 20 April 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

As I suggested in another thread, it may be time for a complete overhaul of extended ranges across the board.

Ballistics = 2x Optimum Range
Energy = 1.5x Optimum Range.

Makes the dropoff of both more significant and makes the damage/range tradeoff more visible (such as the current AC20>AC10 damage at the AC10 Optimum range).

Nahhh I think
Ballistics = 1.25x Optimum Range
Energy = 2x Optimum Range.

[Sean von Steinike]

DONTOR, on 17 April 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

I know realism doesnt exactly fit into this game, but it hurts me that all of these cannons are firing at pathetic ranges, that would make modern wepon systems laugh. Im not against 2X range for ACs its just sad that the range is so short in general (for all weapons)

I kinda look at it like this: the armor is so good, that the rounds though capable of reaching way further, have zero chance of doing any damage, so useless to fire beyond the optimal ranges. That's how I try to rationalize it anyway, and even that is stretching things.

[Gyrok]

Graugger, on 20 April 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

No PPCs are canned enough as it is with a rather slow velocity and extraordinarily high heat generation. ACs are the issue here and need to be buried before they break the game any worse. There is absolutely no reason a mech that has JUST AC/20s or AC/5s can bury an assault mech in toe to toe combat!

Neg. How much ammo do your PPCs require you to carry? You can fire standard PPCs almost indefinitely with a good build...so get off your horse. PPCs have been borked for 2 years, PGI know it, and know it well, but it is the ENTIRE basis of their balance system so they refuse to change it.

Standard PPCs are OP.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gyrok, on 21 April 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Neg. How much ammo do your PPCs require you to carry? You can fire standard PPCs almost indefinitely with a good build...so get off your horse. PPCs have been borked for 2 years, PGI know it, and know it well, but it is the ENTIRE basis of their balance system so they refuse to change it.

Standard PPCs are OP.

That translates to about 25 sinks per PPC though Gyrok. Is that really how you feel it should work? Cause PPCs were never this hot and hard to manage.

[CygnusX7]

If the ac2 is terribad now why cant I run 4-6 of them on my DoubleD?
Oh yeah! GH.....

[Pjwned]

Jman5, on 17 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

5. Balance concern about the ER Large Laser emerges

Unfortunately balance is never done in vacuum. Nerfing one thing indirectly buffs another and vice versa. Making autocannons less capable at long range makes the ER Large Laser stand out more. Lowering the heat requirements of the weapon while increasing the heat requirement of the ER PPC has made the ER LL a fearsome alternative to jump sniping. If PGI goes through with nerfing the range of autocannons, they are going to need to look at how this weapon is performing as well. Otherwise it could be a go-to choice for too many builds.

Mostly agree with this whole post, but this part I don't agree with because the ERLL should be a decent sniping weapon, yet due to its innate damage spread and the requirement to stay on target to do damage it's still not terribly impressive. I agree that nerfing AC range for the rest of them should be done to bring them more in line, but it wouldn't be necessary to nerf the ERLL unless it was maybe a small heat increase, which I still wouldn't agree with really.

[Graugger]

Like I said ACs need to have a 1.25x max range not a 3x or even a 2x. They're just too powerful, leave the long range stuff to gauss / ppc/ Er large lasers/ LRMs.

No one AC should have a max range over 1KM and stacking them in the same location IE 2 in the same arm or 2 in the same side torso should have a major heat penalty.

[Gyrok]

Graugger, on 21 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Like I said ACs need to have a 1.25x max range not a 3x or even a 2x. They're just too powerful, leave the long range stuff to gauss / ppc/ Er large lasers/ LRMs.

No one AC should have a max range over 1KM and stacking them in the same location IE 2 in the same arm or 2 in the same side torso should have a major heat penalty.

Someone gag this guy and shove him in a coat closet...these ideas are terrible...

[Graugger]

Gyrok, on 21 April 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Someone gag this guy and shove him in a coat closet...these ideas are terrible...

Aren't those the kinds of ideas that get incorporated into the game? That should make them absolutely perfect

[Paul Inouye]

Jman5... quit hacking my work account.

[Jin Ma]

I dunno i just hope ACs dont get nerfed too much. they do a good amount of damage and have good range. but they cost significantly more tonnage than laser counterparts and require ammo

[Trauglodyte]

ACs need to have their max range paired down like hte AC2.

Bringing up the ER Lrg Laser, though, consider this: in TT, the PPC was 10 heat and the ER was 15 (+50% heat increase) while the Lrg Laser was 8 heat and the ER was 12 heat (+50% heat increase). In MWO, the PPC is 10 heat and the ER is 15 (+50% heat increase) while the Lrg Laser is 7 heat and the ER is 8.5 (+21% heat increase). Something is majorly amiss here.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 21 April 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[Flying Blind]

Jman5, on 17 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I know a lot of people have been taking a giant dump on the latest AC/2 balance changes, but I'll take the contrarian point of view and argue that it's a great change for the game as a whole.

Does it make sense to have the AC/2 max range under the AC/5? Not really. Having one or two autocannons with 2x range while the rest have 3x range is unintuitive. However, I'm hoping that this is just the test case to gather performance metrics before a greater change to all autocannons.

So what does a mechwarrior game look like where autocannons have 2x range versus 3x range?

1. An indirect buff to Brawling Builds

By cutting autocannon range down by 1/3 and significantly increasing damage drop off you shrink the average combat ranges dramatically. Now instead of taking damage from 2 km away, you're taking the same amount of fire at much closer ranges. This makes it easier to close the gap for brawlers and get into range to hard counter PPC jump snipers (sub 90m).

2. Increase Time to Kill by decreasing overall damage.

People don't really think about this much, but a huge amount of autocannon damage is done past their optimal ranges. However, because the damage drops off linearly at 3 times the optimal range, it is a very very slight transition. Energy weapons on the other hand have a 2x max range so the damage drop off is much more severe.



Despite the fact that both Medium lasers and AC/20 have identical optimum range, the medium laser drops off incredibly quickly zeroing out at 540 meters. The AC/20 keeps going strong all the way out to 810 meters. You see similar effects with other comparable weapons.

By making damage drop off faster you encourage people to fight more in their optimum range. It will also have the effect of making those ultra long range shots hurt less as you close the gap.

3. Makes lasers and other energy weapons more desirable.

In my opinion lasers are some of the most balanced weapons in the game. Their damage over time beam make them a challenge to use properly. Moving at 100+ KPH it can be quite difficult to get the entire beam to not only connect with the target, but hit the same component. If you don't believe me, record a game as a light and then rewatch the fights in slow motion. You'll probably see your lasers bouncing all over the target spreading damage inefficiently. Their heat requirements also really force players to balance their heat carefully.

4. This kills the poptart

Ok kill is a strong word, but it noticeably weakens their ability to dish out damage and makes their weaknesses more easily exploitable.

Let's take a classic two AC/5 + two PPC Victor Dragon Slayer.

Currently it's damage per alpha looks a little something like this:

• 0-90 meters: 10 damage
  
• 91 - 540 meters (optimal range): 30 damage
  
• 810 meters (PPCs half damage): ~ 19 damage
  
• 1080 meters (PPCs zero out): ~ 6 damage
  
• 1160 meters (AC/5 half damage): 5 damage
  
• 1700 meters (AC/5 zero out): 0 damage

Now let's create a hypothetical scenario where AC/5s zero out at 1240 meters instead of 1700 meters.

• 0 - 90 meters: 10 damage
  
• 91 - 540 meters (optimal range): 30 damage
  
• 810 meters (PPC's half damage): ~ 17 damage
  
• 1080 meters (PPC zero out): ~ 3 damage
  
• 1240 meters (ac/5 zero out): 0 damage

A couple damage difference may not sounds like much, but if you're shooting 100 ac/5s (not uncommon for a good jump sniper) you're talking 100-200 potential damage taken out of the game per mech. And the AC/5 isn't even a true triple range autocannon. The differences in other autocannons receiving a 2x range would be even more stark.






5. Balance concern about the ER Large Laser emerges

Unfortunately balance is never done in vacuum. Nerfing one thing indirectly buffs another and vice versa. Making autocannons less capable at long range makes the ER Large Laser stand out more. Lowering the heat requirements of the weapon while increasing the heat requirement of the ER PPC has made the ER LL a fearsome alternative to jump sniping. If PGI goes through with nerfing the range of autocannons, they are going to need to look at how this weapon is performing as well. Otherwise it could be a go-to choice for too many builds.

OMG YES!
I have believed this to be an important change for some time and while I have mentioned it a few times I was never able to express it in a way worthy of public presentation. Jman5 has done what I could not and I want to thank him as well as support this idea. I really believe this change would do as much to bring back brawling as anything possible including SRM hit registration.

PGI, please do this.

[Graugger]

ACs need their max range paired down even more or their DPS lowered considerably or perhaps even a balance of both. AC/2 dps of 1, AC/5 = 2, AC/10 = 3, AC/20 = 4
That would make it so the AC/20 is worth having over 2 AC/5s as it has the same DPS with slightly less tonnage.

Unlike in TT laser damage is spread so reduced heat is a given to make up for spread.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 21 April 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

ACs need to have their max range paired down like hte AC2.

Bringing up the ER Lrg Laser, though, consider this: in TT, the PPC was 10 heat and the ER was 15 (+50% heat increase) while the Lrg Laser was 8 heat and the ER was 12 heat (+50% heat increase). In MWO, the PPC is 10 heat and the ER is 15 (+50% heat increase) while the Lrg Laser is 7 heat and the ER is 8.5 (+21% heat increase). Something is majorly amiss here.

The ER Large Laser would be garbage if it had its heat raised to 50% higher than the regular LL.

Edited by FupDup, 21 April 2014 - 03:28 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Kind of like the ER PPC?

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 21 April 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Kind of like the ER PPC?

The ERPPC is actually an okay weapon. Not total meta cheese, but it's an okay gun. If your mech has only 1 PPC, it should pretty much always be an ER instead of a regular (unless you have plenty of other weapons that are good under 90 meters and/or heat intensive). When you get 2+ of them, then things might get ugly due to our dissipation rates...

The ERLL is also a fairly good weapon right now. It's hot enough to make it worse for sustained fights than the regular LL, but just cool enough to not be fully outclassed by the PPC. Feels pretty well balanced IMO.

[Graugger]

Can't wait for the range nerfs on the ACs followed by the resurrection of mass gaussification and PPCWO. My 4 PPC Banshee will pwn all.

[Daekar]

Paul Inouye, on 21 April 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Jman5... quit hacking my work account.

Paul, you make me very happy, I'm glad you're looking at this. If you remove ECM stacking I'll send you a bouquet of edible fruit flowers. Or a pizza, your choice.