219 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

Khobai, on 18 April 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Even if youre only running a single AC2 youre better off swapping it for an AC5. Its literally like giving your mech 6.4 additional DHS. Not only that but you gain a significant amount of range too.

Only if your completely ignoring the weight and critical slots of the other weapons systems in the build, and 75 shot as opposed to 30 shots a tonne

Edited by Cathy, 19 April 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Mystere]

Cathy, on 19 April 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Maybe the chops but the kebabs have been found to contain other cheaper meats and no lamb at all in some cases, after investigation by the foods standards council

Not all kebabs are created equal.

[Almond Brown]

Chemie, on 18 April 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

6 tons (excluding ammo) for 3 dps or 3 ton for 3xML at 3 tons and about same dps ....hmmm.....

Range.

[Todd Bridges]

Cathy, on 19 April 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Only if your completely ignoring the weight and critical slots of the other weapons systems in the build, and 75 shot as opposed to 30 shots a tonne

Explain to me the benefits of having 75 shots that do 150 damage versus 30 shots that do 150 damage it should be interesting.

[Mystere]

Todd Bridges, on 19 April 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Explain to me the benefits of having 75 shots that do 150 damage versus 30 shots that do 150 damage it should be interesting.

Missing your shots cost you less.

[AssaultPig]

Mystere, on 19 April 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Missing your shots cost you less.

this is a silly way to think about it

AC2s require better aim than 5s, because you have to hold the cursor on target more consistently to get maximum dps. You have to land one round every 1.6s to maximize dps on an AC5; you have to land three rounds in the same timeframe to maximize dps on an AC2. Better velocity makes aiming at long range a little bit easier, but still.

also I think people in this thread don't understand what efficiency means. The AC2 is exactly as efficient as it was before; it does exactly the same amount of damage per heat. It just does it more slowly due to lower RoF.

[Mystere]

AssaultPig, on 19 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

this is a silly way to think about it

AC2s require better aim than 5s, because you have to hold the cursor on target more consistently to get maximum dps. You have to land one round every 1.6s to maximize dps on an AC5; you have to land three rounds in the same timeframe to maximize dps on an AC2. Better velocity makes aiming at long range a little bit easier, but still.

also I think people in this thread don't understand what efficiency means. The AC2 is exactly as efficient as it was before; it does exactly the same amount of damage per heat. It just does it more slowly due to lower RoF.

It still does not invalidate what I said in any way at all whatsoever.

Edited by Mystere, 19 April 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[AssaultPig]

well, if you wanna say dumb stuff that's up to you

[Bishop Steiner]

mwhighlander, on 18 April 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

This and...

This


The sheep will follow trends of the more skilled players and attempt to emulate their play style.

Granted they are still just sheep, but in more effective loadouts.

Remember, the game and game's mechanics determine optimal builds and player "Meta"

You can take off your tinfoil hat there bishop. There is no "SUPER ELITE META COUNCIL" to determine <Arbitrary Mech Build> is the meta. Its discovered after knowing the ins and outs of how the game works and then applying that knowledge to in game scenarios.

Until PGI fundamentally changes heat scale, missiles, convergence, etc. -> "PPC+Ac5" meta will always be superior because that is the state of the game.

Its literally that simple. State of the game determines meta. Not Elite players who want to play a certain way.

ffs...

Nice way to misphrase what I said Highlander. Would expect better. Khobai, as is his want, was on one of his usual if ain't meta, it ain't good comments. I disagree. Meta is meta for a reason. But meta is not the ONLY was to play and be successful Meta is dictated by 3 factors, Maximum Reward, Minimum Risk and Easiest Skill Progression. The reason it works, is because it is the EASIEST way to succeed.

Doesn't take away from the skill level of those using it, though a mediocre player running Meta will usually beat a Mediocre Player running NON-Meta.. Because it is Max Reward, Min Risk. And in general, barring scrubs, skill on skill Meta will have the edge because of this. But Meta also has it's limitations, as many Poptarts had to relearn proper use of cover thanks to LRMs negating their soft concealment. In fact, the biggest risk I find with Meta, is players often get lazy with it, even the good ones.

That said, once you start getting good, especially PUGing Meta is NOT required to succeed. And yeah, even in 12 man it is not required... as long as your unit is actually cohesive, since coordination is the number one cause of 12 man success. I have fought against and with. pretty much every one of you. I have beat, and been beaten, while running in 12s, 4 mans and straight solo. I am NOT a top tier player, but I have at times beaten pretty mcuh all of them, and they have certainly beaten me.

So dude, don't get butthurt and twist things. Not once did I say Meta meant bad players exploiting a system, although there are PLENTY who do just that. I did say that contrary to what is peddled on these Forums, Meta is not the end all be all answer to success.

So since you have felt for whatever reason to make it into something personal, and go on the attack, how about ya start over, remove your head from your ****** and stop reading more into what was said....


ffs

Mcgral18, on 18 April 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Bad players who use meta are still bad players. Weapons still deal damage, but application of that damage does make a difference.

A decent example is pulse lasers. I've built a banshee with 7 MPLs and a LPL. That is a potential alpha of 52.6 damage in .6 seconds at 200M. Mounted with a 400XL and 23 DHS, it's a pretty bad build. But it can kill things quickly in a brawl, with over 100 damage in under 4 seconds.

Of course, the heat system being what it is stops it dead after the second alpha. But if you get within 90M of a meta mech, it will die.

Now, it can survive 3 meta alphas before having an open side torso so it can normally close the distance at 75 KMh, but they normally travel in packs. As such, it's far from an optimal build. Hot, fragile, not fast when gauged with other mechs.

Yup, that is a pretty bad build Thing is you can build NOT BAD builds that are not Meta. And they can play quite viably. But hey, believe the hype too. Seriously starting to think too many people are just taking what the Forums say as gospel and never try to think outside the box, making Meta even more of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 April 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Nice way to misphrase what I said Highlander. Would expect better. Khobai, as is his want, was on one of his usual if ain't meta, it ain't good comments. I disagree. Meta is meta for a reason. But meta is not the ONLY was to play and be successful Meta is dictated by 3 factors, Maximum Reward, Minimum Risk and Easiest Skill Progression. The reason it works, is because it is the EASIEST way to succeed.

Doesn't take away from the skill level of those using it, though a mediocre player running Meta will usually beat a Mediocre Player running NON-Meta.. Because it is Max Reward, Min Risk. And in general, barring scrubs, skill on skill Meta will have the edge because of this. But Meta also has it's limitations, as many Poptarts had to relearn proper use of cover thanks to LRMs negating their soft concealment. In fact, the biggest risk I find with Meta, is players often get lazy with it, even the good ones.

That said, once you start getting good, especially PUGing Meta is NOT required to succeed. And yeah, even in 12 man it is not required... as long as your unit is actually cohesive, since coordination is the number one cause of 12 man success. I have fought against and with. pretty much every one of you. I have beat, and been beaten, while running in 12s, 4 mans and straight solo. I am NOT a top tier player, but I have at times beaten pretty mcuh all of them, and they have certainly beaten me.

So dude, don't get butthurt and twist things. Not once did I say Meta meant bad players exploiting a system, although there are PLENTY who do just that. I did say that contrary to what is peddled on these Forums, Meta is not the end all be all answer to success.


Yup, that is a pretty bad build Thing is you can build NOT BAD builds that are not Meta. And they can play quite viably. But hey, believe the hype too. Seriously starting to think too many people are just taking what the Forums say as gospel and never try to think outside the box, making Meta even more of a self fulfilling prophecy.

No, the 12 mans I've run in say FLD poptarting is best. We've been doing a couple no PPC drops, and we roll the poor poptarts often enough, but the skilled meta teams tend to beat you when you use inferior weapons. It's that simple.


So, tell me a non meta build that is good.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 April 2014 - 11:36 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Only if your completely ignoring the weight and critical slots of the other weapons systems in the build, and 75 shot as opposed to 30 shots a tonne

75 shots as opposed to 30 shots is irrelevant... both do 150 damage per ton. The difference is the AC5 will put more of that damage in the same spot while the ac2 will spread it around more. So the AC5 is more ammo efficient per ton.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 19 April 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

No, the 12 mans I've run in say FLD poptarting is best. We've been doing a couple no PPC drops, and we roll the poor poptarts often enough, but the skilled meta teams tend to beat you when you use inferior weapons. It's that simple.


So, tell me a non meta build that is good.

Let's see... VTR-DS still considered the height of the Meta? Byt the way, define MEta? I don't consider ac5s meta. Nor do I consider PPCs Meta. Nor Jumping. Combining all 3, specifically on one side biased mechs rolling standard engines? Meta.

And for Jump sniping, it's a good build. Pinpoint brawling, it is essentially down to 2 ac5. So any build that has the speed to close, (of course, cover is required, whether facing Meta or RMs or whatever) and stay in close combat, while laying out damage faster than the VTR-DS is a "Good Build". At close range, a ShadowHawk-2D2 will beat it.Better close combat ability, agility and enough armor to survive. Heck, the only time I'm gonna quiver in my slow CTF-4X is if I get myself caught out in the open. And I will probably quiver no matter the mech.

Yes, Poptarts roam in packs.... why don't non meta players? That is a matter of tactics, not build.

[Alaskan Nobody]

mwhighlander, on 18 April 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

You can take off your tinfoil hat there bishop.

Wait? You mean we don't have players constantly running around the guides and feedback portions of the forum screaming about how anything non-meta is absolutely worthless all the time??
/sarcasm off
Might want to pull your head out of your ass and look at what people are saying in the forums sometime.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Let's see... VTR-DS still considered the height of the Meta? Byt the way, define MEta? I don't consider ac5s meta. Nor do I consider PPCs Meta. Nor Jumping. Combining all 3, specifically on one side biased mechs rolling standard engines? Meta.

And for Jump sniping, it's a good build. Pinpoint brawling, it is essentially down to 2 ac5. So any build that has the speed to close, (of course, cover is required, whether facing Meta or RMs or whatever) and stay in close combat, while laying out damage faster than the VTR-DS is a "Good Build". At close range, a ShadowHawk-2D2 will beat it.Better close combat ability, agility and enough armor to survive. Heck, the only time I'm gonna quiver in my slow CTF-4X is if I get myself caught out in the open. And I will probably quiver no matter the mech.

Yes, Poptarts roam in packs.... why don't non meta players? That is a matter of tactics, not build.

FLD is meta. Jumping is just another plus. FLD kills faster and more efficently. I'd say either the Victors or the 3D is the king at the moment.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 19 April 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

FLD is meta. Jumping is just another plus. FLD kills faster and more efficently. I'd say either the Victors or the 3D is the king at the moment.

then I'd say you don't fully understand Meta. FLD is just part of that, Otherwise any build primarily FLD would be MEta, and thus successful. Meta is a COMBINATION of factors, which when overlapped make something far more powerful than mechs NOT overlapping those features. You might notice BOTH your "Meta-King" Mechs are generally run with Standard Engines, Jump Capable Mechs build around FLD. ANd the HGN and VTR actually are running it better, ATM than the Cataphract 3D, which I would consider the "Crown-Prince of Meta". Because both have far more survivable hitboxes, higher mounted arm weapons, and can be stacked to one side Allowing them to sacrifice the left side of the mech to further enhance survival). Why do you think the Victor and Highlander got the nerf, and the CTF did not?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 April 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

then I'd say you don't fully understand Meta. FLD is just part of that, Otherwise any build primarily FLD would be MEta, and thus successful. Meta is a COMBINATION of factors, which when overlapped make something far more powerful than mechs NOT overlapping those features. You might notice BOTH your "Meta-King" Mechs are generally run with Standard Engines, Jump Capable Mechs build around FLD. ANd the HGN and VTR actually are running it better, ATM than the Cataphract 3D, which I would consider the "Crown-Prince of Meta". Because both have far more survivable hitboxes, higher mounted arm weapons, and can be stacked to one side Allowing them to sacrifice the left side of the mech to further enhance survival). Why do you think the Victor and Highlander got the nerf, and the CTF did not?

Highlander is now too slow, but I've never really used it. I found it too slow before the nerf.

But yes, the best meta is a combination of things, but at the most basic level, it's FLD. And pinpoint perfect, instantaneous convergence, but we already know that.

PPC+Dual gauss, 2PPC+Gauss, 2(u)AC5+2PPC, AC20+2PPC, 2 AC20 It's all FLD. Some are more efficient than others, others will beat out the more efficient one at short range.

I'd personally say the XL meta mechs are better built to take advantage of the speed. But some are better with STDs.

I can't say I enjoy having 100% of your weapons being able to be neutered, but I can see the advantage. But I prefer sticking them, then ignoring them until the rest are dead.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 April 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 19 April 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Highlander is now too slow, but I've never really used it. I found it too slow before the nerf.

But yes, the best meta is a combination of things, but at the most basic level, it's FLD. And pinpoint perfect, instantaneous convergence, but we already know that.

PPC+Dual gauss, 2PPC+Gauss, 2(u)AC5+2PPC, AC20+2PPC, 2 AC20 It's all FLD. Some are more efficient than others, others will beat out the more efficient one at short range.

I'd personally say the XL meta mechs are better built to take advantage of the speed. But some are better with STDs.

I can't say I enjoy having 100% of your weapons being able to be neutered, but I can see the advantage. But I prefer sticking them, then ignoring them until the rest are dead.

that is indeed the down side to them, and why since I prefer to brawl, I don't one side many mechs that I can help it with. But on the whole, the Poptart Meta, speed is not a huge necessity. After all, once you have set your lance up in overlapping fire fields. you don't plan on moving too far.

And most Meta-Masters don't seem to spend a lot of time running down caps on Conquest, or worrying about bases on Assault (though I have seen a few more of the high end units on Assault matches, which I approve of. Assault adds a nice dynamic). The concept is jump. fire, and immediately twist to absorb the return fire. Again, speed is secondary usually. In fact, most of our Meta-Overlords would scoff at you for running XLs. So, without realizing it you are a BAD, like me, jus ta Closet-BAD.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

that is indeed the down side to them, and why since I prefer to brawl, I don't one side many mechs that I can help it with. But on the whole, the Poptart Meta, speed is not a huge necessity. After all, once you have set your lance up in overlapping fire fields. you don't plan on moving too far.

And most Meta-Masters don't seem to spend a lot of time running down caps on Conquest, or worrying about bases on Assault (though I have seen a few more of the high end units on Assault matches, which I approve of. Assault adds a nice dynamic). The concept is jump. fire, and immediately twist to absorb the return fire. Again, speed is secondary usually. In fact, most of our Meta-Overlords would scoff at you for running XLs. So, without realizing it you are a BAD, like me, jus ta Closet-BAD.

Eh, I'll take firepower to neuter them before they can neuter me.

I've found assault to be VERY boring, sometimes quite literally waiting 15 minutes outside their gates. A boring dynamic.

The speed is to get into position faster. And I don't own the DS, so I can't take advantage of the 1 side in the Victors. Besides, you just wait for them to try and shoot you, then you attempt to hit their RT or CT.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 19 April 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Eh, I'll take firepower to neuter them before they can neuter me.

I've found assault to be VERY boring, sometimes quite literally waiting 15 minutes outside their gates. A boring dynamic.

The speed is to get into position faster. And I don't own the DS, so I can't take advantage of the 1 side in the Victors. Besides, you just wait for them to try and shoot you, then you attempt to hit their RT or CT.

you know, admission IS the first step of recovery....... You're a Meta Poseur!

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

you know, admission IS the first step of recovery....... You're a Meta Poseur!

I like MGs and the WUB too much to be a meta master.