219 replies to this topic

[Tezcatli]

I think they should lower the heat slightly. Make it a little easier to use them with lasers.

[Mavairo]

Stripping off would require their use in the first place...

[Alaskan Nobody]

Gyrok, on 27 April 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

But it is not advantageous to take 2xAC2s vs. 2xAC5s. You literally have to run 3 for it to be worthwhile.

Really would depend on what you are doing it - you get worse heat with 2x2, but you get ~2x the rate of fire, which matters a lot more for fighting/distracting poptarts.

My GI would not work anywhere near as well with AC/5 - between the lost tonnage to the guns, I lose either my lasers, or a fair chunk of ammo - not to mention that ROF.
Changing to a Shawk for the 5 extra tons still doesn't make it work better with 2x5 - as you lose that ROF - which is currently the AC/2's advantage, not to mention the lost mobility (because JJ only cover so much)

[Diznitch]

My JM6-S w/ quad AC/2's is still ripping folks to shreds. The slightly slower fire rate helps with heat buildup on the long poundings. If you are slow, and I suck you in, you will not be able to outrun the rain of AC/2 death. The only downside is in a pub, the lance may run off and leave me alone to die in a 64kph mech with no ability to deal with smaller mechs.

[Gyrok]

Diznitch, on 27 April 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

My JM6-S w/ quad AC/2's is still ripping folks to shreds. The slightly slower fire rate helps with heat buildup on the long poundings. If you are slow, and I suck you in, you will not be able to outrun the rain of AC/2 death. The only downside is in a pub, the lance may run off and leave me alone to die in a 64kph mech with no ability to deal with smaller mechs.

Quad AC2 should be viable without Ghost Heat...honestly.

[Gyrok]

So it seems this discussion is carrying into another thread...

[Xyroc]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 18 April 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

OP, take it one step further and sell off all those AC2s. If you can't bring yourself to do that, then the nerf wasn't really all that bad was it?

You dont sell things in MWO whatever you sell ends up OP next month

[Scratx]

I stripped the AC2's off ONE mech... my QUAD AC2 Jager. Why? Because I was away from the game for a few months and at some point it seems AC2s got the nerfbat with Ghost Heat (or so the UI was telling me), so I could no longer quad-fire them. And there was no point in keeping just 3, I had to revise the whole build.

So it's now a triple UAC5 monster. If you see my DakkaJager shooting at you, brace yourself for the extreme pain you're about to suffer....

Now, my Trollcada with XL100 and triple AC2... it actually works better now because it's gentler on the heat.

[LastPaladin]

Sable, on 18 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I didn't change any of my mechs with ac2s. They are actually more efficient now. The slight decrese in cooldown has had the effect of slowing heat generation noticeably.

Hey, let's increase the cooldown to 3 seconds, then they will be super-heat efficient.

[MonkeyCheese]

It's made my 5k spider with an ac2 and a ml kinda pointless as that rapid fire in someone's back worked so well while brawling. But that is more of an issue of there being no ballistics options for multi ballistic light mechs between 1.5 tons for a mg + 1ammo and 7 tons for an ac2 +ammo.

As for larger mehcs I don't think I have ever bothered with anything smaller than an ac5.

[Lightfoot]

That's right. PGI should consult this great DPS/Ton chart I made before nerfing stuff and even reverting unnecessary nerfs (well overreaching nerfs) like the Gauss Rifle nerf.


weapon................................DPS= DPS/ton
-----------------------------------------------------------------

machine gun........................1.00= 2.0

ac2.......................................2.5= 0.34* (actually less than the AC 5 in DPS/tons)

ULTRA AC/5........................3.01= 0.37 to 0.67

ac5.......................................3.01= 0.37

lb 10-x..................................4.00= 0.36

ac20.....................................5.00= 0.35

ac10.....................................4.00= 0.33

gauss rifle.........3.75= 0.25
if 6 sec recharge......2.50= 0.17

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This list does not lie. It is proven everyday in the choices players make in Mechlab. Players who know how to win.

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 11 July 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

That's right. PGI should consult this great DPS/Ton chart I made before nerfing stuff and even reverting unnecessary nerfs (well overreaching nerfs) like the Gauss Rifle nerf.


weapon................................DPS= DPS/ton
-----------------------------------------------------------------

machine gun........................1.00= 2.0

ac2.......................................2.5= 0.34* (actually less than the AC 5 in DPS/tons)

ULTRA AC/5........................3.01= 0.37 to 0.67

ac5.......................................3.01= 0.37

lb 10-x..................................4.00= 0.36

ac20.....................................5.00= 0.35

ac10.....................................4.00= 0.33

gauss rifle.........3.75= 0.25
if 6 sec recharge......2.50= 0.17

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This list does not lie. It is proven everyday in the choices players make in Mechlab. Players who know how to win.

The AC/2 needs to be updated because of its recent cooldown un-nerf to 0.72s (new DPS of 2.78).

Also, "players who know how to win" don't use the [U]AC/5 for DPS, they use it to augment their PPC alpha strike (for 30 total points of damage) and because it can "snapshot" better than the Goose Rifle due to not having a charge up.

Clan players who want to win do still use the Goose Rifle with their ERPPCs, because their ACs are burst instead of FLD.

[Shae Starfyre]

I have found that from a Clan perspective, space considered, the CAC2 (not so much the CUAC2) synergizes well with one CERPPC.

The splash damage of the CERPPC and the ripple of the CUAC2 is a little extra damage, potentially to the splashed area or directly where the CERPPC hit, and the ranges are nearly equal.

Edited by Aphoticus, 11 July 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[Bigbacon]

MonkeyCheese, on 08 May 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

It's made my 5k spider with an ac2 and a ml kinda pointless as that rapid fire in someone's back worked so well while brawling. But that is more of an issue of there being no ballistics options for multi ballistic light mechs between 1.5 tons for a mg + 1ammo and 7 tons for an ac2 +ammo.

As for larger mehcs I don't think I have ever bothered with anything smaller than an ac5.

same here but with my AC5 ember. they killed the AC5 for me as well with the last round of changes.

[CaptainDeez]

Funky Bacon, on 18 April 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm okay with them being worse, but they should have kept the range advantage over the AC/5's at least. Tho I guess getting hit by the equivalent of a pea shooter at 2km was too scary for some people so they had to nerf that. =/

On the plus side, noobs will conserve more ammo.

[Rebas Kradd]

I keep double AC2's on my DDC and I could care less about your fussy DPS charts. I love the thing as a psychological weapon. Can force anyone off a ridge because they just don't have the mettle to withstand the rain, even though it's basically a popgun.

That's the problem with you SpreadsheetWarriors. Numbers aren't the whole picture and never were.

[Lightfoot]

FupDup, on 11 July 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

The AC/2 needs to be updated because of its recent cooldown un-nerf to 0.72s (new DPS of 2.78).

Also, "players who know how to win" don't use the [U]AC/5 for DPS, they use it to augment their PPC alpha strike (for 30 total points of damage) and because it can "snapshot" better than the Goose Rifle due to not having a charge up.

Clan players who want to win do still use the Goose Rifle with their ERPPCs, because their ACs are burst instead of FLD.

You know, that's exactly what I said when they were getting ready to nerf the Gauss Rifle. That players would just switch to the more powerful AC5 or even better UAC5, plus PPC/ERPPC combos and the problem would actually become much worse because players just liked the Gauss even though the DPS/ton was very low. On top of that players would be forced to abandon any mech that could not run lots of ACs whereas the Gauss was a viable option for mechs with just one ballistic slot. It was blatantly obvious to most players anyway.

That's why I made the DPS per payload ton chart for ballistics though. It doesn't lie. It showed what eventually happened pretty accurately.


weapon................................DPS= DPS/ton
-----------------------------------------------------------------

machine gun........................1.00= 2.0

ac2.......................................2.5= 0.34*

ULTRA AC/5........................3.01= 0.37 to 0.67

ac5.......................................3.01= 0.37

lb 10-x..................................4.00= 0.36

ac20.....................................5.00= 0.35

ac10.....................................4.00= 0.33 dps/ton

gauss rifle.............................3.75= 0.25

if 6 sec recharge.....................2.50= 0.17

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if they restored the Gauss Rifle to Battletech operation with a 6 second recharge MWO would actually become more balanced with less FLD damage. Truth.

Edited by Lightfoot, 11 July 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Blacksoul1987]

FupDup, on 11 July 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

The AC/2 needs to be updated because of its recent cooldown un-nerf to 0.72s (new DPS of 2.78).

Also, "players who know how to win" don't use the [U]AC/5 for DPS, they use it to augment their PPC alpha strike (for 30 total points of damage) and because it can "snapshot" better than the Goose Rifle due to not having a charge up.

Clan players who want to win do still use the Goose Rifle with their ERPPCs, because their ACs are burst instead of FLD.

its both fup it gets used for both fld and dps. The dps makes it a monster in a brawl. the Gauss ppc combo is better sniper, but the ac/ppc combo is used cause its mad dps is great for strong aggressive pushing.

[badaa]

this like so many unnecessary "nerfs/buffs" ,"tweeks"and "adjustments" is all

because they refuse to touch pinpoint the only real problem this game has

mwo would so much farther along if they dealt with this a year ago

[Lightfoot]

badaa, on 11 July 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

this like so many unnecessary "nerfs/buffs" ,"tweeks"and "adjustments" is all

because they refuse to touch pinpoint the only real problem this game has

mwo would so much farther along if they dealt with this a year ago

Pin Point was dealt with as players requested actually by the two reticles. This does work, though players are challenged to allign the reticules rather than being blocked from doing so. There will always be 2 pin-point reticules and there should always be FLD damage versus DoT damage.

DoT weapons should reward the players with greater damage and FLD weapons with greater accuracy. That differentiates MWO the Mech Simulator from just an arcade game. It's the diversity. It just has to be balanced and the AC2, being the top DoT, weapon is not doing enough damage. But FLD and DoT weapons have to exist side by side and be equally challenging. It's a shame PGI doesn't realize this, but they absolutely bowed down to player hysteria over FLD damage with Clan Ballistic weapons making even the LB-X weapons burst-fire when Battletech says they are single slugs .