33 replies to this topic

[_Comrade_]

Im guessing the Summoner is mostly made in jade falcon territory but what about the other mechs. It's already been suggested by PGI that in CW capturing planets will have consequences as the invading force can gain production of what was produced on that planet. I am hoping that the falcons can invade the Lyran Commonwealth and put a stop to inner sphere Atlas manufacturing for good . So was wondering what clan manufacturers what mech. Or...as it seems, do all the clans manufactured these type of ominmechs

I know that clan smoke jag has production on all the MWO mechs coming out thanks to the fact that as a clan they obsessed with declaring trials of possessions against other clans (especially clan wolf) and im guessing purchasing large lasers will be easier to purchase for clan nova cat since that is their favorite weapon.

Edited by Grimwill, 10 May 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[MalodorousMonkey]

I would be surprised if PGI has that kind of depth in the game as soon as community warfare comes out. Not to sound like johnny raincloud or anything, but PGI hasn't put out new content in a very timely manner. I mean, CW has been delayed for a yearh, so I'm not holding out much hope that such a feature will be in the game anytime soon.

It would be a cool aspect of the metagame, though. I'm sure they would never allow planet conquering to completely restrict the purchase of a certain mech or weapon to an entire faction, however. That would piss too many people off.

As for where the different mechs are manufactured, I would assume Battletech source books would have that info. I never got to play the original tabletop, so I wouldn't know for sure. I just know that, as someone who has always been into the battletech universe, I have wondered that myself before, but have never found a solid source that gives all of the manufactory locations or whatever.

Edited by MalodorousMonkey, 10 May 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Neutron IX]

According to http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Summoner, it looks like the Summoner is manufactured by both Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Hell's Horses, at least as far as canon goes. Will be curious to see how "factional manufacturing" plays, if at all, in MW:O down the road. I'd love to see it added in some concrete fashion.

[Neutron IX]

Of course, that would also make the most popular Clan mech largely unavailable to every clan but Wolf, which seems like it wouldn't go over too well...

Also from Sarna: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Timber_Wolf

"First introduced in 2945, the Timber Wolf was designed by Clan Wolf as a second generation OmniMech along with the Gargoyle and the Naga to replace the aging Woodsman. While the Gargoyle may have been a very capable, fast assault OmniMech, and the Naga may have been an excellent fire-support OmniMech, Clan Wolf (and indeed every other Clan) instantly realized the value of the Timber Wolf; thus, production rights to the Timber Wolf were jealously (and successfully) defended. Only through trade, gifts and battlefield salvage has the Timber Wolf entered the armies of other Clans. Until the invasion of the Inner Sphere, production of the Timber Wolf has been limited to a single facility on Strana Mechty."

Edited by Rip Snorgan, 10 May 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Grimwill, on 10 May 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Im guessing the Summoner is mostly made in jade falcon territory but what about the other mechs. It's already been suggested by PGI that in CW capturing planets will have consequences as the invading force can gain production of what was produced on that planet. I am hoping that the falcons can invade the Lyran Commonwealth and put a stop to inner sphere Atlas manufacturing for good . So was wondering what clan manufacturers what mech. Or...as it seems, do all the clans manufactured these type of ominmechs

I know that clan smoke jag has production on all the MWO mechs coming out thanks to the fact that as a clan they obsessed with declaring trials of possessions against other clans (especially clan wolf) and im guessing purchasing large lasers will be easier to purchase for clan nova cat since that is their favorite weapon.

Yes, Omnimechs are made in the Clan Home worlds, although as time progresses some Clans move Omnimech manufacturing capability to the IS (most of them do anyway).

Sarna is probably your best source for individual mech manufacturing but it is rarely canon and is also all over the shop timewise so treat all entries with care. It's basically good for a read / background but is not to be relied upon as fact.

For example, Clan Smoke Jaguar is noted as the original developer / manufacturer of Direwolves (Daishi) and Clan Wolf won the schematics to manufacture them in a trial, however in Sarna, Smoke Jaguar has no past or current Direwolf factory.

[_Comrade_]

Ahh i see , i was wondering if all the clans produce these mechs are just some were able to produce those mechs. I know that IS has exclusive mechs, not sure about the clans. But i would wager that the Kodiak (which i knnow is not in game yet) would be a GB only mech

MalodorousMonkey, on 10 May 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

I would be surprised if PGI has that kind of depth in the game as soon as community warfare comes out. Not to sound like johnny raincloud or anything, but PGI hasn't put out new content in a very timely manner. I mean, CW has been delayed for a yearh, so I'm not holding out much hope that such a feature will be in the game anytime soon.

It would be a cool aspect of the metagame, though. I'm sure they would never allow planet conquering to completely restrict the purchase of a certain mech or weapon to an entire faction, however. That would piss too many people off.

As for where the different mechs are manufactured, I would assume Battletech source books would have that info. I never got to play the original tabletop, so I wouldn't know for sure. I just know that, as someone who has always been into the battletech universe, I have wondered that myself before, but have never found a solid source that gives all of the manufactory locations or whatever.

They confirmed on their CW video that capturing planets will affect prices and such. Of course this was a year ago and they still haven't implemented it. So things may have changed

[MalodorousMonkey]

Yeah, I know that they were saying they would, but I think that was a while ago. And I mean, they were talking about introducing flat tonnage limits into the matchmaking for a long time, but then they suddenly decided to go with 3/3/3/3 instead. So it's hard to say what they'll do right now, seeing as how we haven't gotten a whole lot of information at all on CW in a while.

[Rogue Jedi]

Craig Steele, on 10 May 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

For example, Clan Smoke Jaguar is noted as the original developer / manufacturer of Direwolves (Daishi) and Clan Wolf won the schematics to manufacture them in a trial, however in Sarna, Smoke Jaguar has no past or current Direwolf factory.

sorry but the above seems incorrect.
http://www.sarna.net...lf_%28Daishi%29
according to sarnait was Clan Wolf scientists who designed the Dire Wolf, which makes sense, would not the Smoke Jaguars have named an assualt Mech after a Jaguar, or at least feline subspecies? The Jaguars won production rights in a trial, and started producing them before Clan Wolf did.

[Craig Steele]

Rogue Jedi, on 12 May 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

sorry but the above seems incorrect.
http://www.sarna.net...lf_%28Daishi%29
according to sarnait was Clan Wolf scientists who designed the Dire Wolf, which makes sense, would not the Smoke Jaguars have named an assualt Mech after a Jaguar, or at least feline subspecies? The Jaguars won production rights in a trial, and started producing them before Clan Wolf did.

lol, so you're telling me that Sarna is correct in a thread by quoting Sarna right after I have just said that Sarna is not canon?

OK

I got nothing else then

Except that Sarna is not canon and while it might be an entertaining read, it cannot be relied upon.

PS, sources of canon are detailed in my signature below.

[Pariah Devalis]

Fluff entries in Sarna, especially for mechs that have been around this long, are taken directly from the TRO. In this case, the sarna information is accurate. The mech was designed by Clan Wolf as the ultimate Assault mech, but the production rights were trialed for by the Jaguars, and they were the first to produce it.

[Craig Steele]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Fluff entries in Sarna, especially for mechs that have been around this long, are taken directly from the TRO. In this case, the sarna information is accurate. The mech was designed by Clan Wolf as the ultimate Assault mech, but the production rights were trialed for by the Jaguars, and they were the first to produce it.

Well then, maybe I got the names around the wrong way?

Whats your source you are quoting and I'll go recheck.

Thanks

[Pariah Devalis]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Fluff entries in Sarna, especially for mechs that have been around this long, are taken directly from the TRO. In this case, the sarna information is accurate. The mech was designed by Clan Wolf as the ultimate Assault mech, but the production rights were trialed for by the Jaguars, and they were the first to produce it.

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Fluff entries in Sarna, especially for mechs that have been around this long, are taken directly from the TRO. In this case, the sarna information is accurate.

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Fluff entries in Sarna, especially for mechs that have been around this long, are taken directly from the TRO.

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

... are taken directly from the TRO.

Craig Steele, on 12 May 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

Whats your source you are quoting and I'll go recheck.

Sarna has its flaws, but it does far more good than bad. Not everyone has, or can have, access to paper TRO or source material. The SARNA DID SOMETHING WRONG A FEW TIMES SO NOTHING IN IT IS WORTH CITING argument is simply one held by those with the paper sources to silence those without.

If you have the paper sources than you have tools others do not have. If something seems fishy, double check them and then correct as necessary. However, taking a blanket "sarna is unquotable" stance, when very much of sarna is, indeed, correct, is just plain, whether intentional or not, elitist, with the 'elite' being those who actually have binders full of the paper source material.

Edit: Oh, and if you are feeling especially magnanimous, bored, or both, IIRC Sarna can be edited like a wiki page. If it is so wrong, then fix it yourself.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 May 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[Vermaxx]

Community warfare would be an amazing platform to limit availability of mechs and parts (with something like repair timers or rush fees) and modifiers on ammo costs and rare tech. As you gain planets things get cheaper, or available period. As you lose planets, things get harder to find, more expensive, etc.

This was my idea for community warfare, and it was a better idea when we all assumed any mech would eventually get access to clan tech. Now there's not much point in worrying about where mechs are manufactured because there is never going to be cross tech. You want a clan mech RIGHT NOW, drop MC. You want one for CB? Just save up a ton, they'll always be available to monetize the game.

No, like others have said, CW has been delayed years and there is still not even a storyboard of the ideas the devs have for what it will look like. CW isn't coming anytime soon, if ever, and when it arrives it will probably just be some underwhelming copy of World of Tanks clan wars. It won't have a massive detailed mmo system. This is call of duty with mechs, not a Mechwarrior mmo.

[Craig Steele]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Sarna has its flaws, but it does far more good than bad. Not everyone has, or can have, access to paper TRO or source material. The SARNA DID SOMETHING WRONG A FEW TIMES SO NOTHING IN IT IS WORTH CITING argument is simply one held by those with the paper sources to silence those without.

If you have the paper sources than you have tools others do not have. If something seems fishy, double check them and then correct as necessary. However, taking a blanket "sarna is unquotable" stance, when very much of sarna is, indeed, correct, is just plain, whether intentional or not, elitist, with the 'elite' being those who actually have binders full of the paper source material.

Edit: Oh, and if you are feeling especially magnanimous, bored, or both, IIRC Sarna can be edited like a wiki page. If it is so wrong, then fix it yourself.

LOL, OK so there's nothing elitest about this here. IDK why you think owning some books means anyone is better than someone else. It doesn't.

But my original post did highlight that Sarna is not canon and while it can be OK, should be treated with care. Can't really be much more honest than that can I. I don't say Sarna is unquotable, except it is not quotable as a Canon source. Sarna has a heck of a lot more "wrong" in it that canon but I'm not here to police it. Go read the Timberwolf story (specifically production timelines) and compare to the canon sources and see for yourself another example of how some fanboys twist canon to suit whatever their agenda is for their "fav".

So when Rogue tells me I am wrong and then quotes the source I just said is not canon, I kinda think that's a little humourous no?

Now your telling me that the Sarna is correct, so I figure you must have the canon in front of you to make such a claim cause I went and checked the 3050 TRO (which is non specific on design btw) but I recall the stroy as I described in a passage on another assault mech description, where it talked about that mech being a spin off of the Smoke Jaguar DESIGNED Dire Wolf.

Problem, I cannot remember which mech that was. So I'm thinking I am correct but happy to be proven wrong. Just not by a Sarna source.

None of which changes my original point that the Sarna has NO Smoke Jaguar Production facility for a mech that Sarna says they do manufacture. ERGO, we might need to treat Sarna with CARE given it is plainly right in front of our eyes on the same page that it has a flaw evident.

But I'm thinking you don't have a canon source to confirm who designed the Direwolf (otherwise you would have corrected me already) and you're just what, giving me a lecture because I said Sarna is not Canon?

[InRev]

As much as I love me a good pissing contest, and although I don't give two horse poops about clanners, I thought I'd throw this in here to see what happens . . .



From TRO3050U

Edit note: From the same TRO, primary factories for the announced mechs are as follows

Uller: Babylon, Lum, Ironhold
Adder: Sheridan (Sheridan), Tranquil (W-7), Arc-Royal (Site 3)
Nova: Tokasha
Stormcrow: TRO only says "various". I assume that it's so old that it's ubiquitous.
Summoner: Ironhold, Niles
Timber Wolf: Strana Mechty, Arc-Royal
Warhawk: Huntress
DIre Wolf: See above

Edited by InRev, 12 May 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Exactly, inRev. If he bothered to look up the Dire Wilf in the TRO, he would have had his answer, which corroborates with what I stated earlier which was "when it comes to lore, it is taken directly from the TRO."

Having the information at hand and not using it is far worse than posting information from a source with a statistically tiny amount if error on it. The material in sarna is largely from official sources, ergo it should be as good as an official source.

IF something is not correct, instead of pooh poohing all sarna references as wrong, why don't you fix the sarna entry to make it correct? Having correct info and not fixing a public database is far, far more serious an issue imo.

[Pariah Devalis]

Double post because editing on a phone here is impossibru:

I am not trying to use "you" in a specific sense, however. I mean "people with the source material." I know having correct info is important, but when a group of people have the ability to make the only readily available source of said material 100% right, and do not make any attempt to do so, and THEN invalidate any argument by those who only have sarna as a source?

That is the elitist outlook I am stating. It becomes "have the paper books or stfu. You are not allowed to comment."

[Daneiel]

InRev, on 12 May 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

Stormcrow: TRO only says "various". I assume that it's so old that it's ubiquitous.

Stormcrow - Tokasha , Niles ,Paxon , Foster , Tamaron , Lum , Huntress and Sheridan - these i manage to find for 5 minutes .

P.S.There must be more - if i remember right Stormcrow was very widely spread through the Clans .

Edited by Daneiel, 12 May 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 May 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Exactly, inRev. If he bothered to look up the Dire Wilf in the TRO, he would have had his answer, which corroborates with what I stated earlier which was "when it comes to lore, it is taken directly from the TRO."

Having the information at hand and not using it is far worse than posting information from a source with a statistically tiny amount if error on it. The material in sarna is largely from official sources, ergo it should be as good as an official source.

IF something is not correct, instead of pooh poohing all sarna references as wrong, why don't you fix the sarna entry to make it correct? Having correct info and not fixing a public database is far, far more serious an issue imo.

Well, I did say I did look it up and my 3050 TRO does not have that detail, so ummm, am I still a bad person?

As for Sarna, actually ALOT of it is garbage (in a canon sense).

IF the Sarna has a Source listed it is usually pretty good. In my experience probably about 80% of the time it is correct.

IF there is no source listed (such as the paragraph quoted by Rogue) then it is in my experience, it's canon about 33% of time. As you could see on that very page (I am assuming you looked at it), the same passage quotes a manufacturing centre on Huntress and Outreach. But if you search both those planets they have no manufacturing centre listed (past or present) that builds the Direwolf.

So which is right? Which Sarna page of the these three are you holding up as 'canon'. Or are you suggesting that a reader should divine which paragraphs of the page they can rely upon as canon somehow?

"Statistically tiny" is an unrealistic assesment of Sarna's canon content. I would say anywhere between 40% to 60% is fabrication by it's various page author's (lets call it artistic licence).

It is a good read and can give some insights (as I originally said) but should be treated with care if you want to make a canon argument. (Did you look up the Timberwolf and note the 50 odd year difference of 'appearance' between the sources?, maybe it's changed?)

None of this has anything to do with my orginal point, it's all about you being right and being a big guy around town. In summary here's how it goes.

OP: Where are Clan mechs made?
CS: In the Clan worlds, use Sarna for individual mechs but be aware that level of detail is often incorrect in Sarna. But it's helpful
R: Actually, you're wrong about the Direwolf design and Sarna is right, here is the Sarna quote that shows you where you are wrong
CS: Umm, It's funny you are using a Sarna quote to show me Sarna is right, cause ummm, I just said Sarna is often wrong.
**: You're so elitest CS, Sarna is right on this but I am not checking it
CS: Oh well if it's right, how come these errors on manufacturing centres stick out like proverbial all on the same page?
IR: Here's my (updated) 3050 reference and it does indeed say that CS was wrong about the Direwolf design.
**: See CS, you're wrong, Sarna is right more times than you think
CS: (now) oh well if it's so right, maybe you can explain these other errors on the same page?
**: .................... (TBA)

[Pariah Devalis]

Actually, sounds to me like you took my basic argument "stating that a sarna source is wrong and that you need the source material (ie: paper materials including Era reports and TROs) on hand and be able to point to them at the drop of a pen or else you should offer nothing to the conversation" is a bullshit argument and one that is correctable by anyone who has the actual material to correct Sarna with," and converted it into a perceived personal attack.

At which point, you not only missed the point of the statement, but let your emotions flavor both your replies to me, in which case as far as an argument is concerned you make yourself lose. Arguments are based on logic, not emotion. Emotion that, in this case, was totally unfounded.

If that is not clear enough for you, then maybe I should break this sucker down line by line. Try to follow.

-

Person has source material (in paper).

Person proclaims that Sarna, the single most readily available, public access source of Battletech material, to be an invalid source.

If sarna is invalid, only official publications in paper print (or digital copy thereof) are valid.

Argument made by anyone must be backed up by evidence to support their claim, but person (I have been using "you" as, quite honestly, it flows better) has decreed that only the either out of print or non-free sources of lore may be considered as valid, otherwise the argument is invalid.

This means that either you have the paper (which some either cannot get or will not spend money on for internet arguments), or you have no argument and you have no right to offer an argument.

-


That, my friend, is bull, especially because while I am sure 23.775% of statistics are made up on the spot the same can be said about your assumptions about Sarna's material. Probably closer to 90% of Sarna is accurate where the lore really matters. We are not talking weapon damage values, ranges, table top rules, or what not. We are talking lore, 100% of the official material which is generated by the Battletech/Mechwarrior novels, TROs, Era Reports, and Battlecorps.

This material is what is copied into Sarna. Minor pre-school level dot connecting might happen in the SUPERMEGA articles, but for the sake of the topic OF THIS FORUM SUBJECT, we are talking about the Direwolf and it, originally, being a Wolf design was claimed as not the case before the proclamation of no-sarna was uttered. Which was wrong. Which was refuted with a Sarna link. Which was met with "I just said Sarna is not a good source!" AKA, "you do not have the source material, shut up."

But, turns out, Sarna was right. Why? Because it was a reliable source. Despite the proclamation. It proves its own fallacy.

Meanwhile, this all ignores that you, your friends, or a complete stranger who actually does have the source material is totally and 100% free to go onto Sarna if something seems amiss, doublecheck the material you or they have, and correct it so that Sarna is even closer to accurate.

Sarna is a product of community input. If it is not 100% accurate than the onus of making it so lies squarely on the shoulders of those with the resources to do so. This nugget of hilarity is what really grinds my gears about the prior statement that "Sarna should not be used as a source." If it is not accurate, the only people who are to be blamed are the community members that refused to make it accurate (aka: the ones with the paper material), and no one else.

Is that absolutely, perfectly clear?

I have a huge problem with the argument. I have no personal care either way for you.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 May 2014 - 05:26 PM.