128 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

Tesunie, on 23 April 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

What you are talking about would be a C3 computer... by the way, PGI gave us all a downgraded C3 computer in all our mechs, FOR FREE! So...

If anything, remove data/target sharing and add in C3 computers into the game. Then have C3 computers give target sharing data. However, by doing this data becomes less important, information warefare becomes almost nonexistent, and either everyone would slap in a C3, or no one would. Having no C3 would also hinder PUG play dramatically, though not so much for premade teams/competitive teams...

With every action, there are reactions. For every fix, you have to consider the alternative repercussions that effect other aspects of the game.

It's not free C3, it's free BAP I tell you!!!!

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 23 April 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[DarkonFullPower]

Random Idea.

Make it so that indirect LRM fire targets the limbs of the mechs almost exclusively, while direct fire have more going for the Center then they already are. This forces indirect LRM fire to have to use a CRUDTON of ammo to kill a mech, while still allowing all LRM builds to do a "softening them up" volley.

But Darkon!~ Wouldn't that make direct LRM's low risk, high reward?

Not even close. LRM's physically cannot torso twist without losing their lock. And if it can see you, you can see it. The risk with running a direct LRM build is that you can/will be taking pin-point damage to anywhere your opponent chooses. You also cannot just decide to take out a weak component, as LRM's go where they please. Not to mention, they're the slowest projectile in the game.
The risk is very clear. But so is the reward.

This method would (theoretically) fix the indirect LRM fire issue, keep AMS useful, and give direct fire an intense "damage race" fighting style.

Thoughts?

[Kinski Orlawisch]

The best way would bee that you can t use locks of other with LRM, when they don t equip a C3 System. For using this u Need one mech with the Controller. When this is done. LRM don t nee lock on time anymore. You shoot over the c3 link.

Idea? At the Moment all IS mechs are better Omnis with a C3 Computer. My 2 Cents.

To get dmg with LRM is not easy when there are a lot of ECM and obstructions. You easy make more dmg with a PPC/Gauss Mech......but thats just the reality.

[Thunder Child]

Actually, you'll find that all Battlemechs are equipped with basic target sharing capabilities. For LRM Indirect Fire, all that was needed was LoS from a friendly unit (which is what we have), although a modifier was added to the to-hit roll.

What the C3 unit did was allow mechs to share firing solutions. So, a mech at 90m (Mech A) could allow a mech at 270m (Mech B ) to use Mech A's range modifier. If Mech B fired an AC/20 (Max Range of 270m in TT) at the Target, it could use Mech A for the range reference. Kind of like a Range Triangulation, or something. Anyways, it would reduce the modifier from +4 to +0. Although movement of Mech B, and any terrain between Mech B and the target would still add their modifiers.
IF we were using a cone of fire system, the C3 network would allow us to reduce the cone of fire radius. However, because we have pinpoint targeting systems at any range, C3 is at this point, completely useless. Oh, it does one other thing. The 5 ton Master unit can also work as a 1 ton TAG.

TLDR: So yes, we do already have "Free" C3 in this game, in the form of pinpoint fire on all Direct Fire Weapons, regardless of range. And before anyone counter argues that we still have to lead targets with Ballistics, that's the Targeting Computer, Not C3.

First Edit: Oh, and my reference for all this is the Battletech Master Rules Compendium.
Sarna has some info, but they aren't allowed to directly post rules.

Second Edit: Because apparently the Forums automatically Translate Mech B ) into Mech

Edited by Thunder Child, 23 April 2014 - 11:55 PM.

[Lex Peregrine]

Wouldnt a fair compromise to be able to lock using spotter's target data be: A single mech in the team carries C3 master unit or whatever (if it weights 5 ton its a strong enough reason to only have 1 mech equiped with it), then it automatically gets and shares target data between the whole team unless under the effect of ecm.

True this will probably affect pug matches, but you still have narc and tag, any target showing the "tagged" indicator should allow locks for indirect fire. Besides, the lrm rain that happens in some matches can be considered a strong deterrent to new players, where's the fun in playing like that for someone who doesnt even quite understand whats happening?

[Lex Peregrine]

And that would introduce another element: Killing a team's mech with C3 master module would be a heavy blow to that team in a competitive match.

There should be an important reason to waste 5 tons to equip a mech with it, and I cant think of a better one, target info sharing. Can be more reasons of course, but without one module in the team, it should work like previous mw games, each mech has its radar and detected targets and doesnt see what others are seeing, use voice comms to let team mates know where the enemy is.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

@excatly Lex. That would reduce the Impact of LRM, gives a tactical Option and would solve the Problem.

[Xx Albain xX]

LRM's are broken plain and simple end of discussion.

A scout mech spots you ok whatever, they ENTIRE enemy team can then launch all their LRM's at you.

The 12 v 12 definitely make it worse. Literally on the small maps the entire enemy team can launch their whole PAYLOAD on your face for looking around cover for one second.

LRM's have taken the fun out of this game.

[Thunder Child]

The problem is, "someone" then has to pay a 5 ton Tax for the team to use, assuming anyone on this Blender Mix of players that the Matchmaker gives you is running any, LRMs indirectly. Considering that LRMs are already 3, 6, 8, and 11 tons respectively (with Artemis), and that you're running at least 2 tons of ammo per launcher to last even halfway through the match, the weight cost starts mounting up rapidly. Add in 1.5 tons for a Beagle, another ton for TAG, and any LRM boat has a minimum of 26.5 tons worth of equipment that can immediately be invalidated by a 1.5 ton piece of Equipment (for limited chassis), or 3 mechs mounting a 0.5 ton piece of equipment, with 2 tons of ammo. And yes, 3 AMS will completely nullify a Standard Stalker Volleyboat.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the Indirect Fire of LRMs is overpowered, when more than one boat is involved.
But making it so that a TAG lock or Narc Beacon is REQUIRED for indirect fire will result in the weapon being shelved.

And to be honest, I think the 30+ Pinpoint Alphas we have in game are far more detrimental to the new player experience.
Having a great big wall of missile exploding all around you is discouraging, but at least you can see them. Having half your mech just disappear from some sparkly blue thing that flashed across the map, in my mind, would be more disheartening though. Because I can tell you now, although LRMs have a strong psychological effect, it's the PPCs and Autocannons that are doing most of the killing. In fact, it wouldn't suprise me if a lot of deaths being attributed to LRMs are actually just because LRMs are so obvious. They become easy to blame. Damnit, I'm starting to sound like a White Knight for LRMs.
Personally, I feel they are balanced where they are. I don't use them, apart from a single LRM 10 or 15 as a support weapon on some of my chassis, and a BLR that I run for Lols some times. PPCs and ACs are just too effective to NOT use.
They only become imbalanced when one side has Multiple LRMs, all volleying on the same target, and no-one has AMS equipped.

Damn, it's hard for me to not devolve into a Rant against pinpoint damage. I've had to retype this three times now, before posting.

[ShinVector]

Sounds like we are getting some truth here.
People boat LRM because it is easily spam-able due to its easy indirect fire capability.
Should LRMs require LOS to fire directly or TAG/NARC to fire indirectly...
People are less likely to boat them....

Hmmmm... That sounds good to me !
PGI make it so !

Edited by ShinVector, 24 April 2014 - 01:20 AM.

[Lex Peregrine]

@Thunder Child:

hehe yea I also feel your pain about the high pinpoint alphas, in my opinion the ghost heat solution they came up with sucks, and I already made different sugestions but they probably dont even read them.

Dont want to write a long post about this in my thread about LRMS but to say something quick, if PPCs were a beam weapon and ACs fire a stream of projectiles (AC2 fires two cannon balls in rapid succession while AC20 fires 20, so bigger AC requires more time on target to do max damage) it might make that problem go away, and no need for ghost heat if heat scale is also changed in different way.

Concerning your opinion on my above sugestion, well, in the past you never had 12vs12, it was max 4vs4 or 8vs8, why not have one assault mech in a team waste some tonnage in a C3 master computer to allow target data sharing? Not every team may choose to do that, its a strategic decision. And Narc and Tag offer a second option when there's no master computer.

Edited by Lex Peregrine, 24 April 2014 - 01:22 AM.

[Thunder Child]

Xx Albain xX, on 24 April 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

LRM's are broken plain and simple end of discussion.

A scout mech spots you ok whatever, they ENTIRE enemy team can then launch all their LRM's at you.

The 12 v 12 definitely make it worse. Literally on the small maps the entire enemy team can launch their whole PAYLOAD on your face for looking around cover for one second.

LRM's have taken the fun out of this game.

I would have to politely disagree with you on both counts, from my experience. I admit that we will have probably experienced different situations on the battlefield, but firstly, at most I have only seen 4-5 LRM boats at any one time, and that was before they dialled the speed back slightly. So you won't have the ENTIRE team launching LRMs at you. Though I will admit that, having seen that rain come at me before, it can certainly FEEL like an entire teams worth of LRMs.

Secondly, and once again, I am only speaking from my own experience of the game, the buff to LRMs, and them actually being used again, has added a whole lot more in the way of tactical options to the battlefield. Before the buff (when LRMs were ALMOST non-existent), the majority of the game consisted of two teams hiding behind hills with a great big stretch of open ground between them, while Jump-Snipers popped up and vaporised anyone that left cover. The occasional brave (or suicidal) brawler would sometimes make a valiant run at the enemy, before exploding. This resulted in the game stagnating into a standoff, with the side that had the most poptarts winning.

I honestly believe that the only true way to balance this game, and give brawlers a fighting chance, is to nerf the LRM Spread of indirect fire, making them less effective, but STILL effective, at suppression. And adding a Cone of Fire to all Direct Fire weapons. This cone of fire could be reduced by staying stationary, timing your shots, and being in optimal weapon range.
Just my 2 cents, but I also am realistic enough to realise that it will never be implemented, and that Snipers (barring a catastrophic nerf) will always be Kings of the mechwarrior Battlefield. It's still the only Multiplayer Mechwarrior on the market, so I will continue to suffer through it.

[Thunder Child]

@ Peregrine
Actually, that's how both weapons are MEANT to be, if you have read any of the books. The PPC is a bolt of Man-made Lightning (imagine the Lightning Gun from UT2004), and the Autocannons were burst fire weapons, because the recoil of a single solid round from an AC/20 would literally knock an Atlas on it's ass. The only Mech in the Lore (that I can recall) that actually fires a Solid shot A/C 20 round is the Cauldron-Born (Ebon Jaguar to you Clanners). And that thing is as wide as an Atlas is High, and as short as a Jenner, to give it a solid footing and low centre of gravity.
But most of the books involve ACs using a 4 or 5 shot magazine.
To be honest, I am not really 100% against the Narc/TAG Indirect Lock thing. I just think it really shafts LRM users, because they will NEVER be able to hold their own in a Direct Fire fight against Pinpoint Frontload Damage. And until we get a system that allows some sort of Team Comp prior to dropping, there will be no point for Random Pugs to run a 5 ton piece of equipment, when they could cram in more ammo, or 5 medium Lasers. Hell, I think the only reason people even run Tags is for the bonus C-bills.

[Lex Peregrine]

Also made the cone-of-fire sugestion in the past, with cone getting larger with speed, possible bonuses with specific modules or XP unlocks, clan tech. How cool would be if cone of fire increases as your mech's foot rises, and then decreases as it lowers, in a way a skilled pilot would time his shots to fire between steps

Lots of awesome options they could use if MWO were more sim and less arcade.

Yea its precisely because I read about it in books that I made this sugestion, PGI should read more btech

I read you, if they were to implement your wider spread idea it would help for sure, and hope they consider at least the master computer module. As I said narc and tag could still provide indirect fire capability, so you could still have it in pug matches.

[Thunder Child]

If the cone of fire was based on your optimal weapon range too, then suddenly C3 would work. It could reduce your cone if an ally was closer to the enemy and had LoS. Though I could see new players getting confused if they have a dozen cones on screen (because how many people run weapons with the same range profiles right?!? Oh yeah, everyone using the "Meta").

[Lex Peregrine]

Hmm yea, different cones of fires for different weapons would be a mess

[Thunder Child]

Not if done properly. It might require a light normalisation of range profiles, but it could be done. They could make it look like a Horizon indicator from the HUD of an F-22 for example. Only instead of Horizon and Altitude, it could show the firing arcs of weapons, and ranges. Maybe I should poke Koniving about it. He's posted some great ideas on these Forums.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Karl Streiger, on 22 April 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

LRMs are fine
AC 5s are fine
PPCs are fine
in short every weapon on their own is fine.
nerfing a specific weapon hurts - those 1% of players that don't boat them.

Every and really every weapon in this game - causes problems when you stack them. (maybe even multiple Flammers on 3 Mechs)

While a single LRM build may be acceptable (near a waste of tonnage - cause of AMS)
A trio of LRM Boats - can destroy a focused target in no time. (not fine)
But same could be said about PPCs...or even those nerfed AC 2s - (take 3-builds with 3 AC 2s....not fine not balanced)

So if anybody has a idea - how to remove the stack multiplication of a single specific bracket weapon - without hurting the single use - please tell us

I have a solution. It's the same solution I've been a proponent from since before closed beta.

Toss the mechlab and the silly level of customization it allows right out the door. Balance the game according to stock builds and then, and ONLY then, start work on a mechlab and customization system which won't completely break existing balance.

Bonus benefit: Mechs like the Panther (one of the few stock lights with a big gun) suddenly have a use because every other light can no longer step on its toes as far as what makes it special goes.

Of course, we're never going to see me get my wish. It's far too late in the game for that.

[Lex Peregrine]

Im with you there!

anybody else finds it ridiculous that they're limiting clan mech customization and let IS mechs have an advantage there? shouldnt it be the other way around?

[Karl Streiger]

Steinar Bergstol, on 24 April 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Toss the mechlab and the silly level of customization it allows right out the door. Balance the game according to stock builds and then, and ONLY then, start work on a mechlab and customization system which won't completely break existing balance.

Bonus benefit: Mechs like the Panther (one of the few stock lights with a big gun) suddenly have a use because every other light can no longer step on its toes as far as what makes it special goes.

Exactly...this

look for extremes - try to fit them into your "view" of Mechwarrior.... for example the Annihilator and the named Panther....or maybe even the Thorn or Hornet (slow 20t Mechs with light LRM racks)

If you can't find a good balance point where both extremes have their value (for example cost or weight restricted drops)
The Annihilator will wipe the Panther in most situations.... but you can have multiple Panthers for a single Annihilator.... and when your "client" pays you 3,000,000 CBills for mission - you won't risk a Annihilator - you send Lights to do the job.

Although its not to late to have a "weight restriction" tier... you have do decide for a drop limit - when you hit the "play" button.
For example (you can choose to drop with a 100t beast in the 500t section.... but when balance is working - the other teams will have some hunter killers - that will slaughter your light friends in no time)
350t
500t
800t
1000t

Lex Peregrine, on 24 April 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

Im with you there!

anybody else finds it ridiculous that they're limiting clan mech customization and let IS mechs have an advantage there? shouldnt it be the other way around?

You shouldn't even been able to swap Heatsinks, Structure, CASE and Armor for the IS.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 April 2014 - 03:30 AM.