128 replies to this topic

[Lex Peregrine]

EDIT: Still think LRMs are OP, but agree its not so much because of their stats, but because of the way they are used, mostly by indirect fire. Game is not fun at all when there's half a dozen guys firing lrms from behind cover at you and you have a hard time fighting back or getting behind cover in time to survive. Agree with proposed solution of increasing missile spread when firing indirectly.

Original post:

I dont care if there are tons of threads about this, I dont come to this forum everyday, so dont bother replying to inform me of that, it just means there's one more person complaining.

Ever since PGI upped the lrm speed, its raining missiles again and AMS sucks when you have 40 lrms heading your way every 5 seconds! And dont tell me I should learn to use cover, Mechwarrior is not about hopping between one hill to the next afraid you're gona be hit by an lrm strike!

I dont want to jump complain, I want to offer sugestions:

Limit LRMs not just to number of hard points but also to number of missile tubes, for instances, if a mech has 2 missile hard points (10 x 2), then allow 2 LRM10 sure, but not 1 LRM20 or 2 LRM15. Looking at smurfy mechlab, I see lots of mechs that have missile hardpoints with a maximun of 10 tubes, while usually only the more missile-flavor mechs have some hardpoints with more than 10 tubes, this would be great for diversity, want to pack big launchers, choose a mech well suited for it.

Remove guidance from LRMs unless there's a tag or narc on target, lock should be required to aim the missiles somewhere, but once they fire they dont change direction (they arc or go direct depending on line of sight or not, if target has tag/narc then allow limited course change). To compensate, spread should increase with distance and damage be area-of-effect, so even missiles that hit the ground near you have a chance of doing some damage, while a more direct hit will spread the damage more, and other effects could be added, like falling down due to being hit by a large volley, and screen shake with varying intensity.

Similar change could be done to streaks, lock - fire straight at target automatically (up speed and decrease spread compared to srm) - no course changes after firing (they should be accurate enough unless you fire point blank and target moves past you as you fire), then no need to create stupid rules to limit streak 6 effectiveness.

Edited by Lex Peregrine, 22 April 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Bobzilla]

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

I dont care if there are tons of threads about this, I dont come to this forum everyday, so dont bother replying to inform me of that, it just means there's one more person complaining.

Ever since PGI upped the lrm speed, its raining missiles again and AMS sucks when you have 40 lrms heading your way every 5 seconds! And dont tell me I should learn to use cover, Mechwarrior is not about hopping between one hill to the next afraid you're gona be hit by an lrm strike!

I dont want to jump complain, I want to offer sugestions:

Limit LRMs not just to number of hard points but also to number of missile tubes, for instances, if a mech has 2 missile hard points (10 x 2), then allow 2 LRM10 sure, but not 1 LRM20 or 2 LRM15. Looking at smurfy mechlab, I see lots of mechs that have missile hardpoints with a maximun of 10 tubes, while usually only the more missile-flavor mechs have some hardpoints with more than 10 tubes, this would be great for diversity, want to pack big launchers, choose a mech well suited for it.

Remove guidance from LRMs unless there's a tag or narc on target, lock should be required to aim the missiles somewhere, but once they fire they dont change direction (they arc or go direct depending on line of sight or not, if target has tag/narc then allow limited course change). To compensate, spread should increase with distance and damage be area-of-effect, so even missiles that hit the ground near you have a chance of doing some damage, while a more direct hit will spread the damage more, and other effects could be added, like falling down due to being hit by a large volley, and screen shake with varying intensity.

Similar change could be done to streaks, lock - fire straight at target automatically (up speed and decrease spread compared to srm) - no course changes after firing (they should be accurate enough unless you fire point blank and target moves past you as you fire), then no need to create stupid rules to limit streak 6 effectiveness.

Just to put missles in perspective. You reference 40 lrms, thats 44 potential damage, but realisticly they hit less than 50% of the time, give a warning, take time to lock on, tavel slow, have a 180m min range, have a max range of 1000m and have equipment that mitigates or is a hard counter to the damage.

2xPPC and 2xac5 do 30 damage, always hit where they are aimed, no warning, are snap fire, travel fast, min range of 90m for the PPCs, longer max range, no equipment mitigates the damage.

Cover is the only thing that totally negates them both, but you get time to react with LRMs.

[Livewyr]

Bobzilla, on 21 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Just to put missles in perspective. You reference 40 lrms, thats 44 potential damage, but realisticly they hit less than 50% of the time, give a warning, take time to lock on, tavel slow, have a 180m min range, have a max range of 1000m and have equipment that mitigates or is a hard counter to the damage.

2xPPC and 2xac5 do 30 damage, always hit where they are aimed, no warning, are snap fire, travel fast, min range of 90m for the PPCs, longer max range, no equipment mitigates the damage.

Cover is the only thing that totally negates them both, but you get time to react with LRMs.

^
/Thread.

[zztophat]

It's funny, I was in a game earlier, in my protector armed with an LRM 15 & 10 (as well as a tag and two LLs). We were playing on crimson strait, fighting over the pass with neither team able to establish a lead. When an enterprising Jenner ran up to the middle of the pass and dropped a UAV, with targets suddenly showing I, and two other mechs (a battlemaster and a stalker) started lobbing missiles over the pass.

We managed to gut 3 enemy mechs before the UAV fell, providing the momentum needed for our team to push and steamroll the enemy, easy win (thanks to random jenner).

While our missiles were firing I mused to myself: "now since this mech is just standing there, taking hits and not understanding that a UAV is spotting on him... will I soon see a post on the forums complaining about LRMs being overpowered? I bet I will..."

I'm not saying OP is that guy, or one of the other two guys that instead of backing out of the UAV range or just shooting it down, stood there on the other side of the pass, confused as to what was spotting them, dying. No, in fact I don't remember any of their names, all I am saying is that I am certain that there are three people playing this game that don't understand certain mechanics and those players now think LRMs are too strong and they will be the few likes the OP gets for this thread.

Just calling it now.

[Lex Peregrine]

To use 2 PPCs and 2 ac5 effectively you need skill, and you likely take damage yourself. To use 3 or more LRM15s you can sit behind a hill and hope there's a good spoter in your team.

[Vermaxx]

There are hard counters, yes, and LRMs can be totally shart in the hands of a bad...but he's probably referring to the massive resurgence of them in the hands of average-to-good players. The problem with LRM is they're most effectively used in two very annoying ways: where you cannot FIGHT BACK because the target is too damn far away and hiding, and where you're just too far away to get in on top of him before an SSRM 15-40 hits you.

Sure, there are ways to negate LRM but there isn't a lot of 'over your head' cover in MWO and a lot of maps have areas where you're just boned if you step out. Are they BALANCED right now? I dunno, I'm terrible at gauging that. I will say they're definitely super effective (yay pokemon) against all types right now, and often balance seems to imply a REAL downside.

L2P to avoid LRM is not a real downside. They might need rearm fees again.

[Vermaxx]

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

To use 2 PPCs and 2 ac5 effectively you need skill, and you likely take damage yourself. To use 3 or more LRM15s you can sit behind a hill and hope there's a good spoter in your team.

Or keep line of sight (NOT within target range, just LINE OF SIGHT) and someone with a TAG or NARC, and effectively murdilate anyone who has no choice but to rush you and die, or engage the harasser and die. Yeah, it's incredibly effective warfare doctrine, but unlike a friendly tabletop or LAN, the other end of that is not someone who can just laugh it off and punch you in the arm.

[Flaming oblivion]

Bobzilla, on 21 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Just to put missles in perspective. You reference 40 lrms, thats 44 potential damage, but realisticly they hit less than 50% of the time, give a warning, take time to lock on, tavel slow, have a 180m min range, have a max range of 1000m and have equipment that mitigates or is a hard counter to the damage.

2xPPC and 2xac5 do 30 damage, always hit where they are aimed, no warning, are snap fire, travel fast, min range of 90m for the PPCs, longer max range, no equipment mitigates the damage.

Cover is the only thing that totally negates them both, but you get time to react with LRMs.

Couldn't of put it better myselve

[Ironwithin]

TL:DR

l2p

kthxbye

(sorry couldn't resist being "the obnoxious one" just this once).

[William Mountbank]

I actually notice that since they got toned back slightly in the most recent patch, all the lurms have vanished again. For a while I was running a 3L with TAG and was seriously considering NARC too, but now when I drop it's back to the old days of maybe one LRM boat in every three matches. I don't bother dropping with TAG any more.

[Vermaxx]

Then you are playing different hours, which leads to different playstyles or different country players act differently. I can say that literally every match I've been in recently has a noticeable flock of LRM fire coming from both teams.

[Gas Guzzler]

They definitely aren't going to do anything to LRMs for a while, at least until they have a good grasp of how the 3/3/3/3 Launch module is balanced. So just sit back, don't go places where you wont be able to reach cover quickly, and next week when the launch module comes out tell your 3 lights where the LRM boats are and they will wolfpack them real quick

[Flaming oblivion]

and the lights will get exterminated because any smart lrm user places himself covered with allies all around him, gl getting near him if his team aint destine to lose.

[Gas Guzzler]

Flaming oblivion, on 21 April 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

and the lights will get exterminated because any smart lrm user places himself covered with allies all around him, gl getting near him if his team aint destine to lose.

Yes and if his allies chase the lights then your team pushes and you roflstomp them.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 21 April 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[Flaming oblivion]

If a team chases a squirrel they should be court marshalled for crimes against intelligence.

[Namouche]

AMS is efective, even more when several players have it and are grouped together.
The problem is that too few players install an AMS, and normally the team is spread all around the map.
I've seen LRMs come and go as PGI make changes to spread/speed/damage, and today they're speed is just enough to reach 750m after 4,5secs (lock with AdvTrgDecay), and it seems fine to me.
As to the number of tubes, I totally subscribe that one: 10 tubes=LRM10 as a max.
This is a fiction game, but the mechanics behind a auto-reload-while-firing missile launcher is beyond fiction, and there's the funny thing that the time it takes to fire a LRM20 thru a 2-tube launcher is short of the reload time of the said launcher.
Guidance...LRMs are not dumb-fire rockets, therefore the reason they make less damage than SRMs (something to do with added weight for electronic guidance systems). They should be able to track.
Maybe PGI will implement knock-down by massive weapons impact - perhaps a reason for an Advanced Gyro module - after they roll back collisions (I miss my 4x LBX10 Daishi)

[Kjudoon]

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

To use 2 PPCs and 2 ac5 effectively you need skill, and you likely take damage yourself. To use 3 or more LRM15s you can sit behind a hill and hope there's a good spoter in your team.

No, you need good twitch reflexes. These are not the same as skill. Skill denotes intelligence, the use of information and thought, not instinctual reactions. You practice the manouver till you can do it without thinking. Ergo, it is not a skill, but an instinct and reaction. I'm not saying that there isn't a purpose, but LRMs require lots of evaluations and estimations that do not rest solely on the ability to time a button click when your cursor is matching a clump of pixels or leading a target if you are to be effective.

Too many don't know the difference.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 April 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Ahhh, one of the CoMW types.

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Limit LRMs not just to number of hard points but also to number of missile tubes, for instances, if a mech has 2 missile hard points (10 x 2), then allow 2 LRM10 sure, but not 1 LRM20 or 2 LRM15. Looking at smurfy mechlab, I see lots of mechs that have missile hardpoints with a maximun of 10 tubes, while usually only the more missile-flavor mechs have some hardpoints with more than 10 tubes, this would be great for diversity, want to pack big launchers, choose a mech well suited for it.

Well, you should pick specifics here though to some degree I can agree with you. Look at Griffins for example, they can pack a lot of big launchers by number of tubes yet try building a Griffin with 1LRM20 + 1-3LRM10, see what you can fit after that, not much even for the engine. So you can have a vlaid point here but it is better to list which ones specifically and why.

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Remove guidance from LRMs unless there's a tag or narc on target, lock should be required to aim the missiles somewhere, but once they fire they dont change direction (they arc or go direct depending on line of sight or not, if target has tag/narc then allow limited course change). To compensate, spread should increase with distance and damage be area-of-effect, so even missiles that hit the ground near you have a chance of doing some damage, while a more direct hit will spread the damage more, and other effects could be added, like falling down due to being hit by a large volley, and screen shake with varying intensity.

LRM guidance has been around since MW1, reason is LRMs are completely useless as aimed weapons. Unlike ACs and PPCs, LRMs take time to get to target, longer than the other 2 so they need lock to have any use at all. You can dead fire LRMs but try it and see how well you hit things.

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Similar change could be done to streaks, lock - fire straight at target automatically (up speed and decrease spread compared to srm) - no course changes after firing (they should be accurate enough unless you fire point blank and target moves past you as you fire), then no need to create stupid rules to limit streak 6 effectiveness.

Streaks would also be completely useless your way.

LRMs and Streaks have counters. ECM Stealth, some players have a power down/up trick against LRMs, putting an enemy between you and the shooter. Missiles also have spread that Direct Fire does not.

[Kjudoon]

That's Mech of Doody players.

BTW, PGI, please do something about these LRMs. Increase speed to 200m/s and get rid of the automatic damage reduction of 50% and let things unfold as they're supposed to. It will cause me to play a shorter game as my long game no longer gets the guidance bonus currently gained by slow missiles. I love watching them serpentine through the sky and readjust up to 300m of distance in a split second when I lose lock and get accused of aimbotting.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 April 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[Tesunie]

I don't know if I should respond seriously again in the LRM debate, or laugh at the OP for complaining that LRMs are being used again... (Considering they were hardly used at all before hand.)

My opinion on LRMs? These old guides still apply, and a speed buff did little to change a lot of the recommendations:
http://mwomercs.com/...o-properly-use/
http://mwomercs.com/...de-how-to-spot/
http://mwomercs.com/...-and-you-62013/
http://mwomercs.com/...-mech-building/

Speed buff made them more viable, and boosted the average accuracy of them by 5-10%. As in, instead of being 33% hit rate, it's now 40% hit rate. Compared to my personal stats with ballistics with a 60% hit rate...

Edited by Tesunie, 21 April 2014 - 05:10 PM.