128 replies to this topic

[Thunder Child]

Well.... the thing is, you CAN swap armor on IS designs, structure was a LOT harder. Same with Engine swaps. But these were things that took many months to achieve, and gratuitous amounts of money. It would be almost cheaper to buy a new mech. The problem is, in MWO, there is NO downtime. Would you really want to upgrade from Single Heatsinks to Doubles, if you can't use that Chassis for 3 weeks while it gets retrofitted? But this topic is getting derailed.

I believe we were talking about LRMs? Has everyone agreed that the best thing to do at this time, without causing LRMs to become non-viable again, is that they need some sort of Nerf to indirect fire, either an increase in Spread (my preference), or a dedicated spotter (which I honestly think will be the death of Indirect fire outside of 4-mans and 12 mans).

[Lex Peregrine]

I'll check if I can make a poll or something
But I believe those are the two best options

[LiGhtningFF13]

LRMs are an issue here again?! Not in my view, how about some training in perfect placement?

[Cest7]

You're looking at this the wrong way. LRMs are at a good level, they are power, they are feared, they work.

Look at everything else, SRMs are still pretty damn useless, no one wants to brawl. The current meta is Direct Fire Ballistic/Energy, whos natural counter is LRMs! Buff up the unused weapons to come up to par with LRMs and you will see less people fielding LRMs.

Its a cause and effect equation (Not: omg LRMs caused me to die, nerf LRMs).

Edited by Cest7, 24 April 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[ShinVector]

With CLAN Lrms looming in the distance... Someone people are going to regret stating that 'LRMs are just fine' statement.
Without out a doubt everyone who loves to boat LRM cheese is going to boat C/LRM cheese.

The biggest issue is that indirect fire on LRMs is done way too easily and at low risk.. Non ECM/jump jets brawlers get the shortest end of the stick...

[Solis Obscuri]

ShinVector, on 24 April 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

With CLAN Lrms looming in the distance... Someone people are going to regret stating that 'LRMs are just fine' statement.
Without out a doubt everyone who loves to boat LRM cheese is going to boat C/LRM cheese.

The biggest issue is that indirect fire on LRMs is done way too easily and at low risk.. Non ECM/jump jets brawlers get the shortest end of the stick...

That's sort of like saying "Clan ERPPCs are scary, we need to halve the damage on all I.S. PPCs right now!" Clantech is over the horizon and needs to be taken care of in it's own vacuum.

As it stands, going up against a team with several LRM boats can be a pain, but no more so than facing a lance of assault jump-snipers or Boomjagers working in coordination. Actually, in most cases it's a bit easier, since you can focus-fire spotters and use terrain to block locks/missiles pretty easily in all but a few areas of a few really open maps like Caustic or Alpine, and because LRM boats are so vulnerable once you can close range. Tbh, I I think LRMs have just been so unusable for most of the last year that a lot of people have forgotten how to work against them. I'm also curious what effect the upcoming chaff and advanced anti-missile system warning modules are going to have.

[ShinVector]

Solis Obscuri, on 24 April 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

That's sort of like saying "Clan ERPPCs are scary, we need to halve the damage on all I.S. PPCs right now!" Clantech is over the horizon and needs to be taken care of in it's own vacuum.

As it stands, going up against a team with several LRM boats can be a pain, but no more so than facing a lance of assault jump-snipers or Boomjagers working in coordination. Actually, in most cases it's a bit easier, since you can focus-fire spotters and use terrain to block locks/missiles pretty easily in all but a few areas of a few really open maps like Caustic or Alpine, and because LRM boats are so vulnerable once you can close range. Tbh, I I think LRMs have just been so unusable for most of the last year that a lot of people have forgotten how to work against them. I'm also curious what effect the upcoming chaff and advanced anti-missile system warning modules are going to have.

Might be news to you.. But Paul already pre nerfed Clan ERPPC from 15 Damage to 10 Damage.
*However.. Chances are I myself will probably be sticking to mostly IS mechs.

There is a difference... One requires Line Of Sight.. The other doesn't.. There is also this issue or damaging sharing and self defence.. But that's going to be too complicated to discuss.

Unusable or not.. People still boated LRM even before the buff and they still work well in a proper setup with a dedicated spotters.

Edited by ShinVector, 24 April 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[Stormur Vakten]

Sounds like a lot of complaining about LRMs here. Why not just nerf everybody's weapons down to 0.01 damage with a max range of 10 meters except yours so you might get a kill? No, that's been the problem for a long time, either nerf weapon damage down or range or even adding more heat to them to make the almost not useable so noobs have just as much chance as vets. Ok I'm done ranting now time for pizza ><

[Lex Peregrine]

Stormur Vakten, on 25 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Sounds like a lot of complaining about LRMs here. Why not just nerf everybody's weapons down to 0.01 damage with a max range of 10 meters except yours so you might get a kill? No, that's been the problem for a long time, either nerf weapon damage down or range or even adding more heat to them to make the almost not useable so noobs have just as much chance as vets. Ok I'm done ranting now time for pizza ><

Dude, your first post, you could at least read the rest of the thread and you would notice there's more to it than complaining about LRMs.
Lots of vets here discussing this matter you know? And we concluded the problem is not with the weapon stats but how its used.

[Tesunie]

Lex Peregrine, on 25 April 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

[size=4]

Dude, your first post, you could at least read the rest of the thread and you would notice there's more to it than complaining about LRMs.
Lots of vets here discussing this matter you know? And we concluded the problem is not with the weapon stats but how its used.

He could have at least read the first post, and seeing it's 6 pages long now, probably read the last few posts to last page. It's what I tend to do (except strangely when I posted here. Of course the good stuff didn't come about till a page after I posted...).

[Lex Peregrine]

hehe yea

[Ironwithin]

Reading is so last fall ... ignorance is the new black !

[Voodoomancer]

Hey guys,

LRMs are currently OP because they *make the game less fun*, especially for players who *aren't* particularly good. I see a lot of matches that ARE basically peekaboo LRM fests. As long as that stays true there is little incentive to rush and brawl (which people actually like to do but which just gets you killed), the games are boring, and noobs with STD engines who don't know how to rush for cover every few seconds will get rolled and lose interest.

(speaking as a bad player with std engines who gets rolled and is losing interest...)

[Tesunie]

Voodoomancer, on 25 April 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Hey guys,

LRMs are currently OP because they *make the game less fun*, especially for players who *aren't* particularly good. I see a lot of matches that ARE basically peekaboo LRM fests. As long as that stays true there is little incentive to rush and brawl (which people actually like to do but which just gets you killed), the games are boring, and noobs with STD engines who don't know how to rush for cover every few seconds will get rolled and lose interest.

(speaking as a bad player with std engines who gets rolled and is losing interest...)

I'd like to counter that point with Jump Snipers, or any sniper. They take long range weapons with a high pin point alpha damage. One shot, and there goes an arm. Two? You are probably dead. (Some exaggeration may be included.) LRMs are easy/hard weapons to use that spread their damage out, meaning targets under LRMs tend to actually live longer than with direct fired weapons.

In the end, I'd say we could go round and round with this conversation. I will agree that brawling weapons need to be tweaked. However, to say that brawling is dead is wrong. To say that the game should be mostly brawling would also be wrong too. We need a balance of many roles for a nice, fun game. That means each role/aspect needs to be balanced with each other. Right now, I think LRMs and snipping are well balanced to each other (with maybe a few tweaks to still be added in). Brawling needs to be brought up to par with the other aspects. Once SRM hit registration is fixed, I suspect that Brawling will see a new light and it will start to come back.

PS: You can make some very good std engine builds. If you want build advice, I could try and give you some pointers, or even some of my builds and you can change them as you wish. I have a mean Griffin 3M build, and it uses it's stock engine. Or a decent Hunchback 4SP with it's stock engine...

[Thunder Child]

6 MGun Jager. Most crazy fun STD engine brawler build I have. Has a pair of Large Lasers for making holes, and then the 6 Machine Guns just tear it up. Great for scaring the bejeezus out of lights too. Best part is, you can still fit a 300 (if I remember rightly) to go fastish. You will die against snipers, poptarts, other brawlers, light packs, small buildings, but you will annihilate LRM boats, as long as you use the terrain to your advantage to get to them.

[ShinVector]

Tesunie, on 25 April 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

I'd like to counter that point with Jump Snipers, or any sniper. They take long range weapons with a high pin point alpha damage. One shot, and there goes an arm. Two? You are probably dead. (Some exaggeration may be included.) LRMs are easy/hard weapons to use that spread their damage out, meaning targets under LRMs tend to actually live longer than with direct fired weapons.

In the end, I'd say we could go round and round with this conversation. I will agree that brawling weapons need to be tweaked. However, to say that brawling is dead is wrong. To say that the game should be mostly brawling would also be wrong too. We need a balance of many roles for a nice, fun game. That means each role/aspect needs to be balanced with each other. Right now, I think LRMs and snipping are well balanced to each other (with maybe a few tweaks to still be added in). Brawling needs to be brought up to par with the other aspects. Once SRM hit registration is fixed, I suspect that Brawling will see a new light and it will start to come back.

PS: You can make some very good std engine builds. If you want build advice, I could try and give you some pointers, or even some of my builds and you can change them as you wish. I have a mean Griffin 3M build, and it uses it's stock engine. Or a decent Hunchback 4SP with it's stock engine...

Here is some food for thought.. They are probably much less skilled Poptarters at lower ELO levels matches...
LRM boats... Now is there any sort of skill barrier preventing a lockon and left click ?

The current easymode LRM indirect fire is evil man.....

Edited by ShinVector, 25 April 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[Koniving]

Here's a simple idea.

Double their damage. Double the wait to fire again.

Just an example: If it has a cooldown of 4, change it to 8. If it does 1.1 damage per missile, make it 2.2 damage per missile.

So instead of x number of missiles every 4 or so seconds, it's x number of missiles every 8 or so seconds.
No more spam fire like this.

or this

or this


Instead, we get very damaging salvos that are very slow to fire again. Fewer boats because boating lots of them might be devastating but leaves you completely defenseless. This is because there will be more time for players to go from cover to cover to reach the boats and kill them. Meanwhile players feel confident in the power of 1 to 2 launchers again with backup weapons and focus more on perfectly timed shots instead of relentless spam.

Everyone wins.

Edited by Koniving, 25 April 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[ShinVector]

Higher damage at the expense of longer cool down could work.. But must remember to think about Clan LRMS though with the 75M min distance.

[LennStar]

the biggest problem I currently have with the LRM is their angle when coming down. Even beyond a building you get hit. You have to be half as big as the building and press your nose on it just to not get hit by the rain.
Instead any rock that is 50% higher then you should give you complete cover even if there is a bit of air between the rock and you.

[Tesunie]

ShinVector, on 25 April 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Here is some food for thought.. They are probably much less skilled Poptarters at lower ELO levels matches...
LRM boats... Now is there any sort of skill barrier preventing a lockon and left click ?

The current easymode LRM indirect fire is evil man.....

I've heard on these forums that Jump Sniping is a skill-less art. Same with brawling. And LRMs. And SSRMs. And SRMs. Actually.. I've heard I think that everything in this game is skill-less. Except for of course whatever combat role that are talking about... Of course...

As I stated, LRM usage is Easy/Hard. They can be some of the simplest and easiest weapons to use, but can at the same time be one of the hardest systems to use effectively and well. With ECM about, they become even harder. With terrain around, that can interfere as well. With a minimum range of 180m, that tends to be a hindrance as well (especially if you are the last man standing on your team and you have LRMs. They all just close in on you and eat you alive. Thankfully, I never boat, so it doesn't bother me much).

I've seen LRMs being used skill-lessly. It made me cringe. Watching that was an experience of pain...

If you really want to hear my opinion on LRMs and their required skills to use well, follow the links!
Where I actually say what skills are needed.
Another guide on how to use LRMs from me, as I keep seeing them being used improperly (like within 180m).
And a guide on balanced mech building, which is typically more vital for LRMs than direct fire weapons.

(You also happen to be talking to someone who runs builds such as this, and this... No boating here! And I do very well with those designs. Stalker is up to 600+ damage a match, with an 18-1 k/d at the moment... (I do not expect that to last.))