126 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

With how crowded the maps are now due to 12v12, no. Removing player control is rarely a good game mechanic to begin with, but I shouldn't be punished because other people can't pilot correctly.

If you are ran into by a team mate yes you should. It sucks I will agree, but if Billy Noobowski runs into me he runs into me. Just like friendly fire. Which by the way... it isn't friendly at all!

[Featherwood]

Almighty Cico, on 21 April 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

God no, i saw few vids on youtube how dragon was ramming every mech lol

NOPE NOPE NOPE

You have totally missed the over9000 goodness of that video. It wasn't just a Dragon kicked over the map, it was Paul Inouye kicked by goons all over the map, I happily smile every time I watch it:

Return knock-downs!!!

Edited by Featherwood, 24 April 2014 - 03:37 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

xMEPHISTOx, on 23 April 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

...and mechs with legs should be able to tea bag a downed opponent, or use said hands to flip another off, or touch another mech inappropriately.

Code: *W W A A , look left, look up, S S D D ESC ENTER*
Action: The 'mech rips the armor plating from groin area to expose internals.

[Matthew Craig]

As we discussed earlier in the project collisions were removed essentially to simplify for engineering the problems of resolving movement and then weapon firing. Its safe to think of these systems as layers that underpin each other, we need good movement to get good firing and stable movement and firing before considering additional collisions.

As the community is well aware we still have some firing issues but we are making progress and before long I think we'll feel more confident that we are at a point where movement and firing are considered stable systems. As you also know we are committed currently to getting Launch Module and then Clans out onto production, but beyond that I've no doubt that Collisions/DFA will be a potential feature under hot discussion.

We've stated in the past we are keen to see it implemented once other commitments are met, and that it can add a lot to the game but we also need to be very careful about how it is implemented as we don't want to get the movement and firing to a solid state only to have it regress.

There is careful design consideration needed and time to consider edge cases and how to balance but I don't think you'll find any disagreement here that collisions/knock downs/DFA would be very cool and great feature to add to the game.

On a slight tangent this is also why features like MASC are more blocked on engineering than design to some degree as we've discussed with design being careful not to allow further movement speed increases without technical consideration as we don't want to create further issues for mechs that are hard to hit etc. the technology for movement and HSR needs to keep up and be able to handle features like that.

As stated movement and firing tend to come first for consideration so maybe MASC would trump doing collisions? we will go along with whatever the intention is from design but first and foremost comes stability of these systems as, as we've all been stating what is MWO without stable movement and firing.

[CrashieJ]

Matthew Craig, on 24 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

As stated movement and firing tend to come first for consideration so maybe MASC would trump doing collisions? we will go along with whatever the intention is from design but first and foremost comes stability of these systems as, as we've all been stating what is MWO without stable movement and firing.

Masc could work as a soft counter with "recovery speed" being doubled.

My biggest gripe was the fact that while down you could not fire weapons, nor use jumpjets to defend yourself or scoot around to a safer place.

lastly considering it being more of a trolling method, a simple "Gyro Module" a mech can equip to increase balance could be an easy solution.

I really hate to say this but the fact you guys blended the Gyro+Engine+Cockpit weights into one item kinda made it more difficult to expand on quite a few ideas.

Edited by gavilatius, 24 April 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Tynan, on 22 April 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

As a pilot who's only any good in lights, I'm completely for this. Just make sure it damages everyone involved.

Also, the all-or-nothing knockdown was clunky. I'd prefer to see the outcome more graduated...light shake -> heavy shake -> stagger -> fall or something along those lines, depending on speed / size of the mechs involved in the crash.

I really want less randomness in the game. In the board game we needed randomness because we weren't actually piloting anything.

Here we have control over the piloting and aiming (which is why we're not rolling dice to see if we hit.)

I want any kind of piloting skill roll to be based on actual piloting.

For example, another mech clips you, your mech starts to fall in the direction the force imparted to you would indicate. You can then maneuver to cancel that fall by moving with that force and dissipating it.

Skill based, not random dice roll or automatic.

You see a guy heading on a ramming run at you and you might want to position your legs in a direction that would help you counter the hit. It would push the game in more of a simulator direction and less of a shooter.

Prezimonto, on 22 April 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

So a true assault still has to worry about equal damage from a full speed 35 ton mech, but in this game a 20 ton mech isn't going to build up enough steam to equal the force of a full speed assault.

Of course this is due to the artificial speed limitation on light mechs due to engineering concerns as Matt mentions above.

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 April 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Mechs doing a bunch of wrestling moves.

Couldn't you just go play some wrestling game?

Armored Yokai, on 23 April 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

So far the majority of the community is with the re-implementation of Knockdown

L2notovergeneralize? Some tards on the forums say they want something and you start throwing around works like "majority" and "community?" Those words have real definitions.

[Prezimonto]

Corwin Vickers, on 26 April 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Of course this is due to the artificial speed limitation on light mechs due to engineering concerns as Matt mentions above.

True, but as Matthew points up above, this has to do with real game engine/netcode issues, not a purely random design choice.

What mystifies me is why we can't take a simplified vector based approach have it work... apply damage from collisions to the first components that make contact and leave it at that. Any later contact is assumed lower energy and not damaging, until a new incident is initiate by a charge of 20m distance and/or a melee new melee attack.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Corwin Vickers, on 26 April 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Couldn't you just go play some wrestling game?

God it's like I'm in court or something. Every word is going to get turned around against me in a blink of an eye! Whoops, I thought mechs performing melee combat was cool, now I'm a raging wrestling fanatic! Gee, thanks for generalizing and over simplifying what I was just trying to have some fun with, and great way to discourage imagination and open mindedness around here.

But back to my original post you so kindly broke down for me; I was simply using the tripping mechanic and taking it a step further. My main point of those examples: If tripping can enhance gameplay mechanics, then I thought using your hands would enhance combat. You still got the guns as the core combat, you still got mechs walking around. I simply thought it would be cool to see MECHS perform those actions I listed and use their guns. Our mechs have all these joints and instead up the basic AC/20 to the back. I thought it'd be nice for a change to grab the collar of a Thunderbolt and bring him to the ground instead. But it doesn't have to be exclusively that. It could be anything. It's just an example, god forbid. I'd ask you to think of fun ways mechs could use their hands, but I guess if mech's do anything other than saunter around and pop off a few rounds it's not a mech game.

Does everything gatta be so literal around here? It's like talking to my girlfriend. You can hardly joke, and you can't have fun. Fun is bad. Unless she's having fun. Than you're allowed to have fun. And thinking of unrealistic things? Don't even! Fantasies/using your imagination to break up the mundane routine of life?!? Don't try it! Wait. Corwin. Are you her? Well if it's not you, then she must be the other 70% of this forum.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 26 April 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

The tripping mechanic is not cool.

Your martial arts mechs are not battletech.

There's a reason there are no wrestling rules in the TT.

Maybe you need a wrestling game with guns? Grand Theft WWE?



Or we could do like you want and have mechs throwing other mechs around, catching bullets in their hands, carrying sniper rifles while they pilot remote control tanks and grabbing care packages all while having 1 hit location and force fields. Wouldn't that be cool?

Glad you and your girlfriend have such a good relationship.

Your line of thinking leads to Mech Assault

[MoonUnitBeta]

Corwin Vickers, on 26 April 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

The tripping mechanic is not cool.

That's your opinion.

Quote

Your martial arts mechs are not battletech.

Sorry for not being elitist. But I'm sure mechs can use their hands in Battletech.

Quote

There's a reason there are no wrestling rules in the TT.

I'm sure there is.

Quote

Maybe you need a wrestling game with guns? Grand Theft WWE?

Nope. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Quote

Or we could do like you want and have mechs throwing other mechs around, catching bullets in their hands, carrying sniper rifles while they pilot remote control tanks and grabbing care packages all while having 1 hit location and force fields. Wouldn't that be cool?

If you think it is cool, then it's cool to you.

But since your jesting is pretty obvious, for the record, I never said mechs throw mechs around (i'm picturing like WWE style like you mentioned earlier.) Also, it's doesn't take a martial arts master to trip someone, or even use their hands lol.
Neo: "I know kung-fu."
Morpheus: "Show me."
Neo: *eats cereal with a spoon*

And catching bullets would mean some serious damage to your hand actuators.
And I've no idea what game you're referencing about the sniper rifles and remote control tanks but that's taking it pretty far lol. I was simply gushing over the possibilities mechs have if they could use their hands. lol. Sorry for touching you in your "no" area.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 26 April 2014 - 04:36 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Corwin Vickers, on 26 April 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

The tripping mechanic is not cool.

Your martial arts mechs are not battletech.

There's a reason there are no wrestling rules in the TT.

Maybe you need a wrestling game with guns? Grand Theft WWE?



Or we could do like you want and have mechs throwing other mechs around, catching bullets in their hands, carrying sniper rifles while they pilot remote control tanks and grabbing care packages all while having 1 hit location and force fields. Wouldn't that be cool?

Glad you and your girlfriend have such a good relationship.

Your line of thinking leads to Mech Assault

I would like to point out a logical extrapolation.

If a mech and hold a rifle or sword, and balance/swing it with enough precision to damage another mech with the edge, it stands to reason that you could reach out and grab the arm/appendage of another mech. Those digits might not have the strength to compete against the other mech, but might well at least be able to hold or slow their movement.

I'd love to see an Atlas reach down and rip off the arm of an AC20 toting jagermech that tried to get too close... them beat the ******* to death with his own arm, wookie on droid style. This is fairly gruesome and visceral, and I'd love to see huge mechs be just play scary to face up close... right now they're actually easiest to face up really close in most situations. This could be interpreted as an extension of the 20 damage punch and kick rules.

Basically, the inclusion of hands, fully mobile limbs, and melee weapons implies a level of combat could well exist that isn't discussed much.

It wouldn't have to be completely arcade cheese either, something as simple as an immobilizing/slowing and damaging grab could be implemented.

******************
edit:

Other implications of having two hands: picking up and carrying objects in the game. This could translate to supply raid games, or even things like starting rock slides.

Edited by Prezimonto, 26 April 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[wanderer]

Corwin Vickers, on 26 April 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

The tripping mechanic is not cool.

Your martial arts mechs are not battletech.

There's a reason there are no wrestling rules in the TT.

Maybe you need a wrestling game with guns? Grand Theft WWE?

Actually, there are plenty of rules for grappling, grabbing, and pushing other 'Mechs around in TT. Physical actions are even the bread and butter of some designs, from the Hatchetman on up. But collisions are just that- keeping us from being ghosts on the field and incidentally, limiting the use of excessive speed.

If you hit MASC, go 200kph and plow into an Atlas or a building,the results should encourage you to avoid high-speed, low-control maneuvers in the future. With no real collisions, this actually encourages wild speed, not discourages it.

[Steel Mayhem]

I think they could add collision back with a tweak that would make it sensible giving the pilot circumstances in their control to avoid knockdown. They could make it speed/size Dependant to allow pilots an immunity to knock down.

Tiny chassis would have to be going only 20 percent or less throttle to be immune
Small chassis could be 30 percent or less
Medium 50 percent or less
Heavy 75 percent or less
Assault would be knockdown immune all together unless you want to apply it to the lower weight assaults

This thought may have been expressed before by someone else possibly, but I have not seen it.

[Corwin Vickers]

MoonUnitBeta, on 26 April 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

And I've no idea what game you're referencing about the sniper rifles and remote control tanks but that's taking it pretty far lol. I was simply gushing over the possibilities mechs have if they could use their hands. lol. Sorry for touching you in your "no" area.

The problem is that "wouldn't it be cool if we changed Battletech" brought about Grand TheftBattlemech AKA Mech Assault with people "jacking" mechs.

It's also responsible for Ghost heat and pinpoint damage.

The reason Battletech is successful when so many other "cool" franchises died was that the board game was very well balanced. All mechs were created by the same rules. Battletech is certainly not the coolest giant mech francishe around by a long shot.

Prezimonto, on 26 April 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

It wouldn't have to be completely arcade cheese either, something as simple as an immobilizing/slowing and damaging grab could be implemented.

It's not something you see much in the fluff either. And games with stuns/roots/snares are horrible competitive games in my experience.

wanderer, on 26 April 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Actually, there are plenty of rules for grappling, grabbing, and pushing other 'Mechs around in TT. Physical actions are even the bread and butter of some designs, from the Hatchetman on up. But collisions are just that- keeping us from being ghosts on the field and incidentally, limiting the use of excessive speed.

If you hit MASC, go 200kph and plow into an Atlas or a building,the results should encourage you to avoid high-speed, low-control maneuvers in the future. With no real collisions, this actually encourages wild speed, not discourages it.

Are you talking about Solaris rules or some other level 3 rules? Because in the standard rules there is punching, kicking, DFA, and charging. Later on you had the hatchetman and Axeman. And only much later did you have other weapons. No grabbing or grappling.

And what no one who advocates collisions ever references correctly is that it is the chargee who does more damage and takes less damage. So it's the assault mechs who get the worst end of the deal. Of course no one wants that though....

You also don't see people asking to get knocked down everytime they take 20 damage in 10 seconds. You don't hear people talking about how they want their atlas to try and kick a locust, miss, fall on it's back and crit it's gyro and never be able to stand again. These are all part of the rules.

All you hear is garbage pilots saying how light mechs are going to get a wake up call when collisions come back. News Flash! I utterly smash light mechs in my assault mechs. You should have no problem in MWO in an assault mech vs a light mech. The assault mech, and in a few cases, the heavy mech, is the king of MWO. All the rules favor them.

What people want is that broken POS we had back in beta for a short time. We still have warping in game now. Collisions would be no different now if they added them back in tomorrow. People complain that when they shoot people the damage doesn't register. It was 100 times worse when collisions were in. We also had ballistic firing delay back then.

And piloting skill rolls are based on stopped, walking, running, jumping, not actual speed. Thus a mech running 40kph has the same trouble maneuvering as the mech running 170kph.

SteelScrunchie, on 26 April 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

I think they could add collision back with a tweak that would make it sensible giving the pilot circumstances in their control to avoid knockdown. They could make it speed/size Dependant to allow pilots an immunity to knock down.

Tiny chassis would have to be going only 20 percent or less throttle to be immune
Small chassis could be 30 percent or less
Medium 50 percent or less
Heavy 75 percent or less
Assault would be knockdown immune all together unless you want to apply it to the lower weight assaults

This thought may have been expressed before by someone else possibly, but I have not seen it.

That's not cannon and that's not physics. Just another "assault mechs aren't powerful enough" post. As if clicking on your mech selection should be the determining factor in whether you win on the battlefield.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Corwin Vickers, on 26 April 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

The problem is that "wouldn't it be cool if we changed Battletech" brought about Grand TheftBattlemech AKA Mech Assault with people "jacking" mechs.

Again, all that I said was what would be cool to see mechs do. If I was serious about it being in the game I would have made a new thread for a feature suggestion. I'm actually more surprised that you've brought mech assault up more times than you have transformers, though. Because my little scenario's is more along what happens in Transformers movies than it does in mech assault. Mech assault was just a bad game. And they didn't know what to do so they did everything wrong.

Quote

It's also responsible for Ghost heat and pinpoint damage.

Can you explain this to me? There's nothing cool about ghost heat and pinpoint, so what was 'cool' that led those things on? Like, for example, "Awe, cool, we can boat 7ppc's." and then, "No, you can't, here's ghost heat."?

Quote

What people want is that broken POS we had back in beta for a short time. We still have warping in game now. Collisions would be no different now if they added them back in tomorrow. People complain that when they shoot people the damage doesn't register. It was 100 times worse when collisions were in. We also had ballistic firing delay back then.

I don't think any one wants that broken POS we had back in beta... When I say, "I want collisions!" I'm certainly not talking about what we had in CB. I have fond memories of that time, but it was pretty bad. That part is pretty obvious. However, in regards to bringing it back, I'm pretty sure it goes without saying that you can assume when people ask for collisions back, they are expecting it not to be broken. So... What people want is collisions... not what we had before. If that's what they say they want, then I assume they're mistaken and just being nostalgic.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 26 April 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[Boris The Spider]

I would love to see them bring back a good physics modelled knock down system, watch as the assault pilots eagerly patch the game, jump right in on River City looking for a Jenner to kick down the street like a tin can... then a RVN-4X comes running up behind them at 130KMph, jump jets up about 15 meters from them, plants it's talons firmly on the Atlas's shoulders and drives it face first into the ground then lopes off down the street with its head juddering about because its pilot cant keep his hand still for laughing his ass off.

I didn't ask for this.jpg

[TimePeriod]

As long as it does not mean a 25 ton raven can knock down a 80 ton assault 'Mech.

Boris The Spider, on 27 April 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

I would love to see them bring back a good physics modelled knock down system, watch as the assault pilots eagerly patch the game, jump right in on River City looking for a Jenner to kick down the street like a tin can... then a RVN-4X comes running up behind them at 130KMph, jump jets up about 15 meters from them, plants it's talons firmly on the Atlas's shoulders and drives it face first into the ground then lopes off down the street with its head juddering about because its pilot cant keep his hand still for laughing his ass off.

I didn't ask for this.jpg

Later that day, the same Atlas notices the raven sniping from a silly crows nest. Goes all the way around, sneaks in on it from on high. Then jumps down on it, splattering the raven across 20 square feet...

[Boris The Spider]

Ravens are 35 tonnes, and I'm no physics professor, but I'm pretty sure that a 35 tonne mech going at 130KMph is going to topple a human proportioned mech that weighs between 80 and 100 tonnes if it hits it above its centre of gravity. On top of that, I also don't believe, given what these mechs are expected to do, day in and day out, fight and run over uneven ground, jump jet up cliffs, onto buildings and over chasms, that jumping onto an assault mechs shoulders exceeds its operating capacity in any way.

But I do agree that if an Atlas can manage to pull off such a manoeuvre, there should be nothing left of the raven.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 27 April 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[TimePeriod]

Boris The Spider, on 27 April 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ravens are 35 tonnes, and I'm no physics professor, but I'm pretty sure that a 35 tonne mech going at 130KMph is going to topple a human proportioned mech that weighs between 80 and 100 tonnes if it hits it above its centre of gravity. On top of that, I also don't believe, given what these mechs are expected to do, day in and day out, fight and run over uneven ground, jump jet up cliffs, onto buildings and over chasms, that jumping onto an assault mechs shoulders exceeds its operating capacity in any way.

But I do agree that if an Atlas can manage to pull off such a manoeuvre, there should be nothing left of the raven.

True, thou if the Raven misses the jump even remotely it will stumble over and land defenceless on the ground with a 100 ton atlas falling right down on top of it. I am no psychics teacher but that raven would go splat even if the Atlas didn't sneak up on it.

Edited by TimePeriod, 27 April 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Mechs should not knockdown other Mechs by just bumping into them. That was bad. But full on ramming where both mechs take damage and may fall down, definitely.

Also all weapons except Lasers and MGs produce what is commonly called "Spin" from impact. This includes PPCs, LRMs, ACs, Gauss. 3xPPCs hitting all at once can knockdown a medium and maybe a heavy. 2xAC20's will knockdown a heavy sometimes. It requires a layer of physics MWO may not have, but would offset the negatives of Ghost Heat with a possible chance at a reward. Most new MechWarrior players would go ballistic if this happened to their mech, but all the veteran MechWarrior players are saying why is there no weapon-spin knockdown in MWO?