63 replies to this topic

[Troutmonkey]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 April 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Huh? I thought that was the old excuse...

They've explained the way they do Advanced zoom is through camera filters and a FOV hack, or something like that. Either way they're still only rendering a single camera view.

[Strum Wealh]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 April 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Hawks, on 22 April 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

Radar aside, canonically mechs should have rear vision displays. IIRC the issue with this is that the Cryengine is unable to support a screen within a screen.

Huh? I thought that was the old excuse...

The issue is less about PiP, per se, and more about CE3 being (largely, if not wholly) unable to process multiple viewports (or, at least, to do so with workable efficiency; see here).

What we see with the zoom functions is just a magnification of one segment of one viewport, while something like a rear-view camera would necessarily require one or more additional independent viewports.

[Karl Streiger]

Strum Wealh, on 23 April 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

The issue is less about PiP, per se, and more about CE3 being (largely, if not wholly) unable to process multiple viewports (or, at least, to do so with workable efficiency; see here).

What we see with the zoom functions is just a magnification of one segment of one viewport, while something like a rear-view camera would necessarily require one or more additional independent viewports.

But it should be possible to "switch" the view port - right?

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 23 April 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

But it should be possible to "switch" the view port - right?

Somebody has to be looking behind me some time during the battle right?

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Somebody has to be looking behind me some time during the battle right?

Nope - i only want to have my CT-Lasers back where they belong.... and that means i have to "switch" the view port - and place 2 MLAS shots into that darn bug that gnaws at my leg armor (although the Quiki with a SRM4 would be real fun)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 April 2014 - 05:41 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

The minovsky particles block the radar waves

Closer than you'd like to think, actually.

One thing MWO doesn't make clear is that Battlemechs even WITHOUT a Guardian ECM system are spewing out a huge amount of electronic warfare/dealing with processing through a host of false data anyway- which is in part why sensor ranges are limited. It's why most guidance systems are relatively simple- more complex stuff tends to be fooled, spoofed, or otherwise ruined by the normal ECM suite on combat-capable vehicles.

Of course, people started developing specialty items to help cut through the normal ECM (Beagle, later Bloodhound etc) and enhance it (Guardian/Clan ECM suite,later Angel ECM suites and stealth armor), as the normal give-and-take of technology marched on.

Seriously, though...we can't look behind us and ahead because Cryengine. Having F4 switch views instead of the derp of 3rd-person would have been nice though...

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 23 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Nope - i only want to have my CT-Lasers back where they belong.... and that means i have to "switch" the view port - and place 2 MLAS shots into that darn bug that gnaws at my leg armor (although the Quiki with a SRM4 would be real fun)

What I was trying to say is that shouldn't the view behind me be rendered already if someone is looking that way? I'd love to have my rear mount Lasers back to make it painful to be behind me too.

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

What I was trying to say is that shouldn't the view behind me be rendered already if someone is looking that way? I'd love to have my rear mount Lasers back to make it painful to be behind me too.

The view behind you would only be rendered for the person who can "see" it. I think (I'm no expert here) that how the rendering breaks down is thus:

• The server keeps a realtime view of everything that's on the battlefield
  
• Your computer only keeps a realtime view of what is within your LOS - as far as your PC/Laptop is concerned, if you can't see something that thing doesn't exist and therefore doesn't need to be rendered.

So while the view of the person who can see behind you is being rendered somewhere, it's not accessible to your PC (if you wanted to see it, you'd need to render it over again yourself).

I think that's how it's working. I'm not an expert though, so I may very well be wrong.

[Dimento Graven]

<sigh>

REALLY?!?!

<sigh>

You were spotted by ANOTHER enemy, his information wasn't scrambled by someone else's ECM and your position reported to the rest of the team.

The fact that this game lacks a REAR VIEW, even though historically throughout the BattleTech/MechWarrior franchise there was ALWAYS some form of rear sensing (360 compressed view, or review camera, or MAD detection, or SEISMIC detection, etc.), allows for an 'unnatural state' (unnatural to the BT/MW franchise) of 20+ ton machines, powered by FUSION reactors (which require HUGE magnetic bottles, extremely detectable), being able to "sneak" undetected.

Let's go for a big fat NOT.

All but ONE of my commonly piloted 'mechs have Adv. Seismic modules installed, you're NOT sneaking up on me, and if my sensors show someone behind me, I'm turning around and targeting your ass. If I can't target you, I'll do my best to communicate to the team via VOIP or text chat, that I had a seismic 'ping' in sector XX.

The way it works now is completely unreasonable.

WHERE IS OUR MAD?!?!
WHERE IS OUR REARVIEW?!?!

Cannon 'mechs have REAR FIRING weapons, heck the Rifleman (maybe even the BlackJack and Jaeger) had the capability of flipping the arms to face the rear...

So to have someone apparently be serious in calling for a targeting/sensing nerf...

Wow.

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

What I was trying to say is that shouldn't the view behind me be rendered already if someone is looking that way? I'd love to have my rear mount Lasers back to make it painful to be behind me too.

Yes, if a team member has your rear in view, and an enemy is visible to him, unless that team member is under an enemy ECM, any enemies he can see behind you will be reported in your hud.

As far as I know, only seismic information is not shared between team members. All other sensor information is shared, IF NOT BLOCKED by enemy ECM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 23 April 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

<sigh>

REALLY?!?!

<sigh>

You were spotted by ANOTHER enemy, his information wasn't scrambled by someone else's ECM and your position reported to the rest of the team.

The fact that this game lacks a REAR VIEW, even though historically throughout the BattleTech/MechWarrior franchise there was ALWAYS some form of rear sensing (360 compressed view, or review camera, or MAD detection, or SEISMIC detection, etc.), allows for an 'unnatural state' (unnatural to the BT/MW franchise) of 20+ ton machines, powered by FUSION reactors (which require HUGE magnetic bottles, extremely detectable), being able to "sneak" undetected.

Let's go for a big fat NOT.

All but ONE of my commonly piloted 'mechs have Adv. Seismic modules installed, you're NOT sneaking up on me, and if my sensors show someone behind me, I'm turning around and targeting your ass. If I can't target you, I'll do my best to communicate to the team via VOIP or text chat, that I had a seismic 'ping' in sector XX.

The way it works now is completely unreasonable.

WHERE IS OUR MAD?!?!
WHERE IS OUR REARVIEW?!?!

Cannon 'mechs have REAR FIRING weapons, heck the Rifleman (maybe even the BlackJack and Jaeger) had the capability of flipping the arms to face the rear...

So to have someone apparently be serious in calling for a targeting/sensing nerf...

Wow.

It felt good reading this Demento!

[Roadkill]

Artgathan, on 21 April 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

I think you need to be able to see &gt; 75% of the mech to be able to get a radar contact. I'm not sure what the exact number is though.

You only need to be able to see 10% of the target in order to get radar lock within 800 meters. It used to be a higher percentage back in closed beta (or maybe slightly into open beta), but it was changed because it was too easy for snipers and missile boats to hill hump and never show up on radar.

[Captain Stiffy]

Foxfire, on 21 April 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

That nice red triangle that appears above an enemy mech the instant they are on your screen(unless they have ECM) that lets you see where they are, no matter if you actually saw them yourself nor how much of their mech that you saw.

It does depend on range. Advanced sensor range lets you target (i.e. spot) further than other mechs which (theoretically) would allow you to scout more effectively as a non-ECM mech. It should be noted that many of the smaller maps don't really allow for this. I don't necessarily agree with this design choice but the alternative is getting utterly destroyed regularly by things that you can't detect.

I wonder what the game would be like without the targeting computer.

[J0anna]

The only problem with this is that it will create more sniping lights. As it is now, ecm lights sit just beyond sight range, plinking away all but immune to return fire as they exploit the limited sight ranges on maps (since they can see your "magic triangle" while they don't have one). MWO has gone our of it's way to make better graphics cards useless on certain maps (such that on those maps I quickly lower settings), this will just push people to downgrade their settings on more maps.....

[Dimento Graven]

Moenrg, on 23 April 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

The only problem with this is that it will create more sniping lights. As it is now, ecm lights sit just beyond sight range, plinking away all but immune to return fire as they exploit the limited sight ranges on maps (since they can see your &quot;magic triangle&quot; while they don't have one). MWO has gone our of it's way to make better graphics cards useless on certain maps (such that on those maps I quickly lower settings), this will just push people to downgrade their settings on more maps.....

My experience varies greatly from what you're describing. You can typically "see" much farther than your sensors can detect a 'mech, and any 'mech that is far enough away to NOT be "seen" is typically out of range of my gauss rifle anyway, so I don't care about his existence.

If there's a 'mech in front of me, pop-tarting, or humping a hill, it's a matter of timing. An ECM 'mech I'll probably never have a lock on him anyway, BUT, if he's moving and changing the color of pixels in front of me, I can aim at him and kill him.

Only indirect missile fire posses a problem with 'mechs firing at me, but I'm not able to reach them, but that's a whole other discussion (one I am on both sides of the fence since my 2nd most commonly piloted 'mech is a LRM boat).

[Roland]

Here's what it looks like when devs consider making a functional system of sensor mechanics.
https://forums.rober...-exploration/p1

[monk]

Active and passive seem like absolute necessity. The information warfare aspect of MWO is pretty pathetic right now. I'd love to see these things matter. Switching modes, improved gear modules, etc. Role warfare is needed here. Just having weight classes isn't sufficient. There is so much more MWO could be. I realize ECM being the catch all for almost all systems affecting these things is a simple solution, and gameplay can be fun based on this, but there is a lot more that could be done by separating out the systems and adding in features that have existed in other MW games and in lore. Games that reward players for investing time in both playing and learning how to use features generally are the longest lasting. Depth is a good thing and adding it doesn't have to alienate new players.

Roland, on 27 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Here's what it looks like when devs consider making a functional system of sensor mechanics.
https://forums.rober...-exploration/p1

Love the discussion in there. So much good could come from that. I'd love to have the ability to try and trick other teams sensors. Imagine them blowing LRMs on ghost targets. There is so much that could be done to add balance and interesting function to battles.

[InspectorG]

Why not instead of a rear view, use the damage reticle thing, (the one that glows red whan you are hit- big truncated corner box thing) glow blue when someone outside forward LOS has a lock on you/LOS on you. Brighter blue, closer to you.

I find it hard to believe that on a futuristic machine like a mech all the sensors would only be forward mounted. Hell they could put dozens of webcams all over the mech for various vews. But that is part of the Battletech fun, what they projected future tech to be and what we have today.

Arm flipping could have been such a nice feature on some mechs.

I bet Occulus Rift will solve this in most future games.

[Dimento Graven]

InspectorG, on 09 May 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Why not instead of a rear view, use the damage reticle thing, (the one that glows red whan you are hit- big truncated corner box thing) glow blue when someone outside forward LOS has a lock on you/LOS on you. Brighter blue, closer to you.

No. Rear view, or some form of squished 360 view to be a TRUE BattleMech simulator.

Do it right darn it.

Quote

I find it hard to believe that on a futuristic machine like a mech all the sensors would only be forward mounted. Hell they could put dozens of webcams all over the mech for various vews. But that is part of the Battletech fun, what they projected future tech to be and what we have today.

Of course you're being ironic as according to BattleTech cannon, INDEED, there were mechs that had REAR MOUNTED weapons.

Quote

Arm flipping could have been such a nice feature on some mechs.

More intentional irony I'm sure, as many 'mechs, according to BattleTech cannon did indeed have arm flipping (Rifleman and Jaeger come to mind as 'mechs that supported this).

Quote

I bet Occulus Rift will solve this in most future games.

How?

[Mister Blastman]

Doritos are hazardous for your health. They are full of MSG.