229 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

I don't use it, it just seems too restrictive after playing without it, and I can aim my arms at my centre crosshairs pretty easy.

I feel its drawbacks and strenghts are about eqaual, so it comes down to opinions or if it affects game play (does it perpetuate the long range pinpont meta?).

I would like to know why torso weapons can only fire forward and arms can move. Is it just a realistic thing or is there a game play design purpose behind this? If there is any sort of reason relating to game design, then it shouldn't be in the game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bobzilla, on 24 April 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

I don't use it, it just seems too restrictive after playing without it, and I can aim my arms at my centre crosshairs pretty easy.

I feel its drawbacks and strengths are about equal, so it comes down to opinions or if it affects game play (does it perpetuate the long range pinpont meta?).

I would like to know why torso weapons can only fire forward and arms can move. Is it just a realistic thing or is there a game play design purpose behind this? If there is any sort of reason relating to game design, then it shouldn't be in the game.

part of it is a realism thing (mechs aren't covered in turrets) it simply makes for a more durable mounting, the less movement involved (less stuff to break and maintain) although later in lore timeline they do add battlemech turrets.

And part was balance, back pre-clans when FASA actually worried about silly things like that. Usually it limited your ac20 to the torso, with it''s more limited arc, especially if you wanted to mount hands and such. And of course with later tech, ac20 in the trso meant no XL. I actually rather approve of PGIs take on mechs with no lower arm actuator having no lateral movement per se, and would love it to be a TT rule. Then the only advantage of an ac20 in the arm would be to free up space for an XL engine.

Of course, then they got stupid with Star League and then Clan Tech and all semblance of balance flew out the window, leaving CGL (for TT) and now Paul and PGI with a serious pickle about how to use clan technology...... since it was never even remotely game balanced.

I wouldn't say it outright perpetuates LR Meta, though. It simply is another tool the proponents of said Meta discovered which could be used to make them even more efficient at it. And if it can be used, it will be, which I am not arguing against. It's more "once PGI realizes that it is being used in a way obviously not originally intended, to promote an unbalanced meta, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate it, modify, or remove it."

It's funny, because we had no access to it at all in CB, and most of us figured the game out just fine. Which, indicates to me, since I trust most players to be smart and adaptable, that if it had never been implemented, had been implemented better, or even removed, like many things, people would simply get over it. So many things that cause such gnashing of teeth actually become very moot after it has actually been done.

Regardless, it is here now, it is poorly implemented now, and PGI should revisit it to see how to make it viable, if they feel it is indeed needed, but to minimize it's use in the aforementioned unbalanced LR Meta.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 April 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[zazz0000]

Fut, on 24 April 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

This is where I'm getting hung up on this issue.
Having never tried armlock, I'm not sure what to picture - but the fact that so many people are saying that it does something instantly is quite concerning, and it should not be allowed in game.

If you want your arms locked to your torso, that's great. I hope it serves you well.
But armlock on/off giving some insta-movement on the reticules sounds like a cheat.

Actually instant snap back is an issue has as much to do with arms locked as arms unlocked.
Currently arms have nearly instant movement speed, so engaging arm lock when the arms are at high deflection from torso returns them to center within fractions of a second.

Now whether that's actually an issue, I'm not entirely sure. In a couple tests that I've done, when doing the "insta-return", the torso continues to drift for a while after the arms have centered themselves, so I'm not really sure what's exploitable about that.

But if it IS a concern - limit arm movement speed. A 65 ton mech shouldn't be able to flap its 28 ton arms like a goddamn hummingbird. But of course limiting arm speed would kinda nerf unlocked arms... Is that something you'd be interested in?

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 24 April 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

Actually instant snap back is an issue has as much to do with arms locked as arms unlocked.
Currently arms have nearly instant movement speed, so engaging arm lock when the arms are at high deflection from torso returns them to center within fractions of a second.

Now whether that's actually an issue, I'm not entirely sure. In a couple tests that I've done, when doing the "insta-return", the torso continues to drift for a while after the arms have centered themselves, so I'm not really sure what's exploitable about that.

But if it IS a concern - limit arm movement speed. A 65 ton mech shouldn't be able to flap its 28 ton arms like a goddamn hummingbird. But of course limiting arm speed would kinda nerf unlocked arms... Is that something you'd be interested in?

Not really the speed, but the accuracy the arms maintain at that speed. It's why I have said all along, with arms snapping back to lock so fast, it should be faster than manual, but also have a brief moment where the arms are desynced, be it though CoF, screen shake, have the arm weapons fire .25 second faster than the torso, whatever, so that it is not quite so obviously a tangible advantage to doing it by hand. If it even simply allowed for a minimal amount of damage spreading, I think it would be in a viable place.

And it wouldn't be punishing the players who run it by default, except for that brief 1/4 of a second when after they unlock the arms, then bring them back to lock. Which is something I am willing to bet, no one outside of the Poptart, would even notice.

And yeah, I know with the fractions of seconds I am talking about, it almost seems like splitting hairs, probably, but even if it is not noticeable always for everyone, on the competitive end, it can be the difference between a win or a loss. And even though I seldom play comp anymore, Comp is the best place to see where possible mechanic breaks are, as that crowd will use every single one.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 April 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Fut]

zazz0000, on 24 April 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

But if it IS a concern - limit arm movement speed. A 65 ton mech shouldn't be able to flap its 28 ton arms like a goddamn hummingbird. But of course limiting arm speed would kinda nerf unlocked arms... Is that something you'd be interested in?

Not sure if I completely understand what you're suggesting here, but I think I'm on board for it.
If limited arm-speed made it 'realistic' across the board (Lights with the fastest arm movement, Assaults with the slowest. Arm-locked arms getting no insta-converge when toggled off/on), I think it's something that should be implemented.

[Eglar]

I usually play with armlock on by default and have the armlock switch key bound to Mouse Button 4. Usually, when I fire I am using it with having Armlock On. Even with non-pinpoint weapons such as SRMs, having Armlock is a good idea for the sake of convergence an concentrated fire.

The only situations where I would have armlock off would be:
1. Torso-twisting (just for the feeling )
2. Playing arm-mounted mechs only. (Jagermech, jenner being some of them)
3. Retreat while dishing out.
4. Acquiring LRM/ssrm lock.
5. Fire at close-range at lights to keep up.
6. Fire from High/Low ground where only arms can reach the target

[Dakkath]

Fut, on 24 April 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

This is where I'm getting hung up on this issue.
Having never tried armlock, I'm not sure what to picture - but the fact that so many people are saying that it does something instantly is quite concerning, and it should not be allowed in game.

If you want your arms locked to your torso, that's great. I hope it serves you well.
But armlock on/off giving some insta-movement on the reticules sounds like a cheat.

If you guys are witnessing some sort of bug-like behavior, or at least just want clarification. Please contact Support@MWOMERCS.com.

Thanks guys,
Dak

[Bishop Steiner]

Eglar, on 24 April 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

I usually play with armlock on by default and have the armlock switch key bound to Mouse Button 4. Usually, when I fire I am using it with having Armlock On. Even with non-pinpoint weapons such as SRMs, having Armlock is a good idea for the sake of convergence an concentrated fire.

The only situations where I would have armlock off would be:
1. Torso-twisting (just for the feeling )
2. Playing arm-mounted mechs only. (Jagermech, jenner being some of them)
3. Retreat while dishing out.
4. Acquiring LRM/ssrm lock.
5. Fire at close-range at lights to keep up.
6. Fire from High/Low ground where only arms can reach the target

so...about 90% of the time, then?

[Egomane]

I hope you don't mind, but I added a note to the OP.
Yes, I fell for it too.

[Bishop Steiner]

Egomane, on 24 April 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I hope you don't mind, but I added a note to the OP.
Yes, I fell for it too.

fell for what? Almost removed it as a name and shame?