229 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Me - I play with arms nice and locked until I want them otherwise. Now with that out of the way:

You can just as easily say that unlocked arms is a crutch. I mean, you can get snapshots off faster because arms have infinite movement speed. You can twist your torso faster than a player with locked arm. You can look around AND put your sights on target at the same time.

Calling locked arms a crutch suggests that that mode gives you an advantage. Yet the vast majority of Pros seem to play with it off. Are they just gimping themselves to level the playing field? Cuz power gamers are known to do that, with their stock mechs and their refusal to use modules and consumables.

Is the "F" key a crutch? It allows you to center your legs out WITHOUT having to twist your torso to compensate for the turn. Using chain fire to prevent ghost heat instead of timing shots yourself? Maybe dropping in 4 groups with third party VoIP against PUG's?

The extremists here are just saying "my way is right, any other is wrong". When you say "I prefer this way" they say "it's cheating".

and you actually have to do all those things manually, and aim yourself. Armslock does the heavy lifting for you, so no, not remotely the same thing. Like the good Captain Stiffy, I am willing to bet if you unlock your arms, your weapons fire accuracy with those weapons will reduce significantly. Hence You actually have to use skill to overcome it.

GG, close!

[Captain Stiffy]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

and you actually have to do all those things manually, and aim yourself. Armslock does the heavy lifting for you, so no, not remotely the same thing. Like the good Captain Stiffy, I am willing to bet if you unlock your arms, your weapons fire accuracy with those weapons will reduce significantly. Hence You actually have to use skill to overcome it.

GG, close!

Nay-saying, insulting and tirading against everyone who posts a contrary opinion won't get you what you want. 12,000 posts later you are still a regular idea-scourge of this forum. You should be banned for your own good.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 23 April 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

No because an unlock induced spread may still hit other components than the one targeted and register as a hit. Add to that that I'm not sure how accuracy is calculated for hitscan weapons. It may be that one brief sweep counts as a 100% hit. A division of damage per kill would yield a far more accurate representation with the given that said mechwarrior never aimed for a leg or arm (controlled environment remember)

While I'm at it we'll add a new constraint that all target mechs will carry XLs and that in all cases (excepting the light) our subject will attempt to achieve a kill via ST in a brawling range engagement

remember, the HGN and 2D are usually arm locked because their ballistics are in the RA. Thus we aren't worrying about the accuracy of the lasers (if mounted) but entirely on weapons with FLD the Gauss, ACs and PPC. It is far easier to track than trying to determine damage to mech (which can vary greatly unless you only fight the same mech each match, which is great for lab results, but not IRL results) or even damage by time in match, due to the vagaries of combat.

Tracking the accuracy of the arm mounted FLD weapons can be done in real combat environment, without changing any of the usual variables Aresye faces.

Captain Stiffy, on 23 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Nay-saying, insulting and tirading against everyone who posts a contrary opinion won't get you what you want. 12,000 posts later you are still a regular idea-scourge of this forum. You should be banned for your own good.

Lol. Ah, the "it's good because I say so" troll returns to refute actual logical arguments with his kumbaya approach to game balance! Seriously dude, get an real argument or get off my thread.

I treat ALL posters with the level of respect their post deserves, based on their actual amount of thought involved and attitude. Hence, I give yours none at all.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 April 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

and you actually have to do all those things manually, and aim yourself. Armslock does the heavy lifting for you, so no, not remotely the same thing. Like the good Captain Stiffy, I am willing to bet if you unlock your arms, your weapons fire accuracy with those weapons will reduce significantly. Hence You actually have to use skill to overcome it.

GG, close!

Now I am going to have to try this and see. Wonder how much it would affect my accuracy. Darn you Bishop!

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Now I am going to have to try this and see. Wonder how much it would affect my accuracy. Darn you Bishop!

It's been interesting. My torso weaponry sees no change obviously, but the damage done by arm lasers is far more focus and arm mounted FLD seem much more consistent. I need to do it con clean slate accounts to truly know though.

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 23 April 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

No because an unlock induced spread may still hit other components than the one targeted and register as a hit. Add to that that I'm not sure how accuracy is calculated for hitscan weapons. It may be that one brief sweep counts as a 100% hit. A division of damage per kill would yield a far more accurate representation with the given that said mechwarrior never aimed for a leg or arm (controlled environment remember)

While I'm at it we'll add a new constraint that all target mechs will carry XLs and that in all cases (excepting the light) our subject will attempt to achieve a kill via ST in a brawling range engagement

Your point on hitscan like lasers I think could only be gauged by running mechs with ONLY arm lasers, and doing a similar trial, but this time, as you say, instead of testing accuracy (which should be similar as mere brush counts as a hit with lasers) the damage would then be compared. I still think it requires 2 fresh accounts running the identical mech to do so.

Wanna divide and conquer?

[zazz0000]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

and you actually have to do all those things manually, and aim yourself. Armslock does the heavy lifting for you, so no, not remotely the same thing. Like the good Captain Stiffy, I am willing to bet if you unlock your arms, your weapons fire accuracy with those weapons will reduce significantly. Hence You actually have to use skill to overcome it.

GG, close!

Alright, how about we make that bet, and if I win, you have to turn on armlock, and then show me how much your accuracy has increased. Sound fair?

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Alright, how about we make that bet, and if I win, you have to turn on armlock, and then show me how much your accuracy has increased. Sound fair?

been doing that for the last night, already. And even poptarting, which I despise. As I already have stated above, I am interested in doing some work with Aresye for more scientific results. But since those require fresh accounts to accurately track, no, not just going to do it on a bet, but if Aresye and Khajja are willing to share some of the workload, then yes, I will do even deeper research. And when and if that occurs, I will gladly post.

Despite the fact it's common sense that instant convergence of arm weapons will give one higher snap accuracy that manual.

[Joseph Mallan]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Alright, how about we make that bet, and if I win, you have to turn on armlock, and then show me how much your accuracy has increased. Sound fair?

i was planning to test it already. But it will take at least 20 games to get a good feel as I am very used to free movement of my arms.

[zazz0000]

There we go, reasonable scientific approach. I like that.

Just out of curiosity, if the tests conclusively show that arm lock gives you a clear and significant advantage, what's the next step? Similarly, what if the tests show minimal difference?

[Fang01]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It's been interesting. My torso weaponry sees no change obviously, but the damage done by arm lasers is far more focus and arm mounted FLD seem much more consistent. I need to do it con clean slate accounts to truly know though.


Your point on hitscan like lasers I think could only be gauged by running mechs with ONLY arm lasers, and doing a similar trial, but this time, as you say, instead of testing accuracy (which should be similar as mere brush counts as a hit with lasers) the damage would then be compared. I still think it requires 2 fresh accounts running the identical mech to do so.

Wanna divide and conquer?

Heh, not for me man. I'm only here to help develop good testing practices. I'm happiest in tiny things and tiny things need to put all available damage into the same spot repeatably.

[Joseph Mallan]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

There we go, reasonable scientific approach. I like that.

Just out of curiosity, if the tests conclusively show that arm lock gives you a clear and significant advantage, what's the next step? Similarly, what if the tests show minimal difference?

I'll likely go back to free swinging arms as I said arm lock feels really restrictive.

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

There we go, reasonable scientific approach. I like that.

Just out of curiosity, if the tests conclusively show that arm lock gives you a clear and significant advantage, what's the next step? Similarly, what if the tests show minimal difference?

then read my earlier posts. (mostly because they are a bit scattered, but do cover this)

My issue is two fold.

One is the "potential" borderline abuse of the mechanic to improve Poptarting, by improving the efficacy of pinpoint damage. (which many won't want gone, because for many it's more about winning than balance anyhow)

The other, was the lack of transparency on the mechanic and how to access and use it. I believe the tutorial does mention it, but that is about ALL they do. And last I checked, the tutorial was not mandatory. Hence many many new players are walking around unaware their range of motion is even gimped, or that they have the option to disable (permanently or otherwise) the arm lock so they can actually effective deal with fast mobile and close threats. The number of times I watch new to even moderately experienced players get destroyed by a damaged Light or Medium, because they couldn't track the opponent due to arm lock, is legion.

It not only needs to be better explained, but IMO; the tutorial should be mandatory, and even specifically force you to use and engage/ disengage the arm lock.

My post was about the issues it is causing on both sides of the Elo See-Saw.

The other factor I have to take into account, is until I can afford the proper test bed on that account, I really cannot use the specific weapon classes I need, AC5/10s and PPCs so as not to dirty the data pool.

As you can see, beside the hassle of creating a new email account, new MWO account, going through cadet training (cuz I sure ain't spending IRL money to do this) and such, I also have to do it with 1 arm tied behind my back...... or two when I test with arm lock, eh?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 April 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[qki]

Two words for you bishop:

smooth movement.

Arm lock on gives a much smoother movement which is actually good for aiming. Thing is, many people forget about left shift.

I run with arm lock on, and when I need to reach further out (or down) i simply hold down LShift and presto.

[Bishop Steiner]

qki, on 23 April 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Two words for you bishop:

smooth movement.

Arm lock on gives a much smoother movement which is actually good for aiming. Thing is, many people forget about left shift.

I run with arm lock on, and when I need to reach further out (or down) i simply hold down LShift and presto.

I am aware of what it does. It doesn't change my opinion of it. or the need for the mechanic to be looked into.

God, people are making feel like I'm some type of uberL33T for being able to mostly stay on target without it. Thanks for that, I guess, lol.

[zazz0000]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

I am aware of what it does. It doesn't change my opinion of it. or the need for the mechanic to be looked into.

God, people are making feel like I'm some type of uberL33T for being able to mostly stay on target without it. Thanks for that, I guess, lol.

Well... you gotta be uberL33T, the creme of the crop, the 1%. We've all heard the legends of you trouncing numbers, scores even, of enemy mechs, while piloting a crippled Orion (which should be turned into a hero mech if you ask me), until succumbing to your grave wounds and having to ******* watch some ******* piece of shit noob just ruin everything! ****!

And the moral of the story is "Arms Lock is for bads, and if you use it you should feel bad".

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Well... you gotta be uberL33T, the creme of the crop, the 1%. We've all heard the legends of you trouncing numbers, scores even, of enemy mechs, while piloting a crippled Orion (which should be turned into a hero mech if you ask me), until succumbing to your grave wounds and having to ******* watch some ******* piece of shit noob just ruin everything! ****!

And the moral of the story is "Arms Lock is for bads, and if you use it you should feel bad".

Sounds about right.

Only I prefer my idea for a Griffin to be "Hero-ized" as the Orion was built on an existing chassis. Excuse me for actually wanting to see a BETTER game. If you prefer training wheels, that is of course, your choice. As for that "n00b" I have already spoken to him, so honestly your opinion on the matter is moot.

The moral of the story is, had he even known about arm lock, he could indeed have brought a very different ending to the story. Getting your panties in a bunch and leaving out the facts and details of the posts does nothing to strengthen your argument, it just leaves you like Captain Stiffy, proving you don't actually have one.

Now since i have been totally reasonable, and even agreed that I would love to see and even perform some actual testing myself as time permits, and even gave a reasonable answer to you as to what my opinion would be should my hypothesis prove wrong, perhaps you should try acting accordingly? If you can't handle some good natured hyperbole being thrown out because people's consistent counter argument seems to be "OHMAHGERD I can't aim as good without it", then you really take video games way too seriously.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 April 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Nyte Kitsune]

*cough* I been using arm lock sadly, Could be why I get creamed so often, will have to try without it for a bit, then again I could just suck, but I'm always open to trying something that may save me some irritation at not being to hit those little twerps running around me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sstaan, on 23 April 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

*cough* I been using arm lock sadly, Could be why I get creamed so often, will have to try without it for a bit, then again I could just suck, but I'm always open to trying something that may save me some irritation at not being to hit those little twerps running around me.

well, if nothing else hotmap it to a convenient key so you can use "arms free" as needed, as many of the Pros seem to prefer. Me, I guess I'm a boxers type of guy..... I like things to feel free!

[xCico]

Arm lock is extremly viable if you have dual gauss (cataphract 3D) or current meta (2 (U)C5+2PPC), on other builds NOPE!

Edited by Almighty Cico, 23 April 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[Mcgral18]

And just remember, removal will do nothing to the Cbill Victors. All arm mounted PPCs and ACs/gauss.

Not that anyone should use arm lock on a victor....that's rather silly.

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 April 2014 - 02:40 PM.