229 replies to this topic

[Fang01]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Dude. I respect you, you know that.

But let's get over the illusion that this is reality. This is an FPS game, and as such, it should be about skill, not crutches. Or has the military completely moved away from teaching people how to use iron sights in favor of optics?

The point of this has NOTHING to do with IRL.

The point is 2 fold.

We have a game, where the players and devs almost unanimously acknowledge the TtK is far too fast. (even though real life combat, TtK tends to be either your weapon is totally inadequate, or your target is almost insta-killed, that doesn't really lend to a fun game, right?) To the point you constantly have people crying for doubled (again!) armor and turnign ALL weapons into some form of DoT mechanic. The Arm Lock mechanic is being used to exacerbate the primary cause of fast TtK, pinpoint, instant FLD.

Hence it runs negative to the stated goals of the Devs.

The second point, is that because of the cluttered nature of the UI, and lack of proper tutorial setup (and ability to simply skip it) you have a large population of newer players with their combat abilities pre-gimped because they don't even KNOW they have arm lock engaged, or it even exists. And thus, many die faster, and many people have an even less desirable early experience with the game, which does not tend to lend itself to player retentions.

So in summary my friend, it is a game mechanic exploited to increase lethality in High End play, and that more often than not hurts the play of new, low end players. That is the relevant point, not IRL mechanics and feasibility.

Hey I get you man and I'm not trying to be an ass. Just saying.

You'd actually be surprised at the lack of understanding when it comes to basic rifle marksmanship in the army. They do indeed teach irons but most are issued a red dot optic with very little understanding of it's operation.

T&e is purely mechanical though, you can see me cranking on it in the second vid and we use the irons on the m2 to get a coarse adjustment prior to firing

[Bishop Steiner]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 22 April 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Hey I get you man and I'm not trying to be an ass. Just saying.

You'd actually be surprised at the lack of understanding when it comes to basic rifle marksmanship in the army. They do indeed teach irons but most are issued a red dot optic with very little understanding of it's operation.

T&e is purely mechanical though, you can see me cranking on it in the second vid and we use the irons on the m2 to get a coarse adjustment prior to firing

sadly, I am not that surprised by the lack of basic knowledge of manual of arms. Military family. Me, I'm the only one not in the military and the only one who is an avid shooter and gun enthusiast. I doubt my older brother even remembers how to field strip an M16 or M9, since I doubt he has touched either since basic (Air Force Intel Weenie). I know a lot of rank and file guys who knew their gun, and that was it. Nothing wrong with that. Just a bit surprising.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 April 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Watched a Boar's Head die to a legged Raven last night because the Raven was close and he couldn't depress his arm-locked reticle enough to shoot it. He died while stumbling around trying to get enough range while simultaneously keeping the Raven in sight.

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

The end result is to remove the easy switch. Not to reverse it. Arm lock should only be in the game for Cadets. The pinpoint meta is already too out of hand for you to need help making it worse. High end players were fine before it was added, and will be fine again if it is removed. Low end players on the other hand are playing in a straightjacket, and not even knowing it.

I'm not denying that arm-lock allows the pin-point meta crowd to somewhat take advantage of the game mechanics, and I definitely don't disagree with you on wanting a game more based off skill.

I've always been a fan of besting opponents using weapons and techniques that require more finesse, such as choosing the Scout over AWP in Counter-Strike, or chosing the M40 rifle in SOCOM (God that thing sucked).

Arm lock isn't necessarily the problem though. It's a feature that expands on already existing problems. The pro meta poptarting crowd isn't going to go away if arm lock was suddenly removed altogether. In fact, I doubt it would change a thing. If I have enough time to keep my lasers focused on a single location for their entire duration, the meta crowd can stay in the air long enough to align all their weapons for an alpha (or they'll stagger it).

I'll do you a favor though. I'll turn my arm-lock off for tonight's games. I'll let you know what the results are, and if you happen to face me, you can judge for yourself how much of a crutch it is to me.
*Note: I'm honestly not talking smack (I know it sounds that way). If you do happen to face me, I'd be great to have feedback from both sides for this discussion. For science!

Edited by Aresye, 22 April 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 22 April 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

I'm not denying that arm-lock allows the pin-point meta crowd to somewhat take advantage of the game mechanics, and I definitely don't disagree with you on wanting a game more based off skill.

I've always been a fan of besting opponents using weapons and techniques that require more finesse, such as choosing the Scout over AWP in Counter-Strike, or chosing the M40 rifle in SOCOM (God that thing sucked).

Arm lock isn't necessarily the problem though. It's a feature that expands on already existing problems. The pro meta poptarting crowd isn't going to go away if arm lock was suddenly removed altogether. In fact, I doubt it would change a thing. If I have enough time to keep my lasers focused on a single location for their entire duration, the meta crowd can stay in the air long enough to align all their weapons for an alpha (or they'll stagger it).

I'll do you a favor though. I'll turn my arm-lock off for tonight's games. I'll let you know what the results are, and if you happen to face me, you can judge for yourself how much of a crutch it is to me.
*Note: I'm honestly not talking smack (I know it sounds that way). If you do happen to face me, I'd be great to have feedback from both sides for this discussion. For science!

It would be good to know.

I am aware it is just one symptom of the poptart meta. Poptarting existed before arms lock. It does make it easier (I have tried it, and TBH, felt a little dirty. And I ain't even a Pro-Poptarter, lol) I have strong opinions I would love to get input back from guys like yourself, that would IMO, reduce the Poptart Meta some, without actually diminishing the skill. Of course, my definition of skill and some gamers do not coincide, as clicking a pixel, without interference, IMO, while a legit twitch skill is not the same as "real" skills like real shooters have to overcome. It's why I favor things like sized hardpoints, to allow customization, but maintain role diversity (something lacking now) and (yeah, you will probably hate me for this) situational CoF. I think at extremes (running high heat, while jumping, 75% or higher of max throttle, or firing beyond "optimal" ranges. And the more you are doing the more they should stack, so as where just running there may be a chance your ct shot it's the ST, if you are running, nearly heated out AND past optimal range, it could seriously impact your shot), one should not have the pinpoint accuracy the game allows. It's not only unrealistic, but IMO, dilutes skill. Real skill I feel is understanding limitations and working around them to succeed. Anyhow, those are topics for a different thread, I suppose.

But, the poptarting is just one facet of the issue. Like I said, I think it actually hurts the new players, at least as implemented more than it helps. Too many don't even know why they are so outclassed, because so many don't even know about it. The you take a guy like you, or Curccu, who knows how to game it, and come across the poor schlub in a match? Do you think disparities like this help MWO keep players, especially casual ones?

I would certainly be interested in your findings. I may be on later tonight, running either with HARD or on my Alt Account getting to know my sibkin in Clan Ghost Bear. Good hunting!

[Captain Stiffy]

Without arm lock the targeting reticule is a constant struggle. My style does not normally require unlocking but if it should it's just ALT. I also pilot many mechs for which under most circumstances it is irrelevant.

I have the completely opposite opinion because ALL THE FREAKIN TIME I see people without arms locked that can't aim for crap or can't control their mech well and you can just tell it's the arm lock screwing them up.

Why would I want to play pinball with the freakin cursor 100% of the time when I can just unlock them if I need to make an arm shot? It seems like incredible fail to me to have them unlocked. If you need to look that is a keybind as well. For me these are CTRL and ALT and holding both of them actually allows me to move the arms and view together without torso twisting at all which is awesome in mechs with good visibility on the sides.

The game is way way way easier with lock enabled. Some people seem to enjoy pinball-mode and that's fine, and just because you think you are good at it or that it is better does not mean that other people definitely suffer for it.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 22 April 2014 - 08:58 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Without arm lock the targeting reticule is a constant struggle. My style does not normally require unlocking but if it should it's just ALT. I also pilot many mechs for which under most circumstances it is irrelevant.

I have the completely opposite opinion because ALL THE FREAKIN TIME I see people without arms locked that can't aim for crap or can't control their mech well and you can just tell it's the arm lock screwing them up.

Why would I want to play pinball with the freakin cursor 100% of the time when I can just unlock them if I need to make an arm shot? It seems like incredible fail to me to have them unlocked. If you need to look that is a keybind as well. For me these are CTRL and ALT and holding both of them actually allows me to move the arms and view together without torso twisting at all which is awesome in mechs with good visibility on the sides.

The game is way way way easier with lock enabled. Some people seem to enjoy pinball-mode and that's fine, and just because you think you are good at it or that it is better does not mean that other people definitely suffer for it.

I NEVER use arm lock and do OK with just a crap two button Dell mouse I "liberated" from work.

Some people like to be able to hit high deflection shots when they like without using an extra key. Poptarting is just fine for me without it (though I'm no super meta pro).

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Without arm lock the targeting reticule is a constant struggle. My style does not normally require unlocking but if it should it's just ALT. I also pilot many mechs for which under most circumstances it is irrelevant.

I have the completely opposite opinion because ALL THE FREAKIN TIME I see people without arms locked that can't aim for crap or can't control their mech well and you can just tell it's the arm lock screwing them up.

Why would I want to play pinball with the freakin cursor 100% of the time when I can just unlock them if I need to make an arm shot? It seems like incredible fail to me to have them unlocked. If you need to look that is a keybind as well. For me these are CTRL and ALT and holding both of them actually allows me to move the arms and view together without torso twisting at all which is awesome in mechs with good visibility on the sides.

The game is way way way easier with lock enabled. Some people seem to enjoy pinball-mode and that's fine, and just because you think you are good at it or that it is better does not mean that other people definitely suffer for it.

however did you survive before they implemented it? It is a relatively new addition.

[Captain Stiffy]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 April 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

I NEVER use arm lock and do OK with just a crap two button Dell mouse I "liberated" from work.

Some people like to be able to hit high deflection shots when they like without using an extra key. Poptarting is just fine for me without it (though I'm no super meta pro).

Everyone has their own style. The option for arm lock is definitely a much needed staple of gameplay in MWO. Torso facing is just so, so important. Of paramount importance. I definitely want my torso movement to be predictable and exact at all times and the 'chase the rabbit' mouse-mode leads to an extremely high level of unpredictability. If you learn to look only with the mouse cursor that in my opinion is not good... you need to be using hat-control as well.

I use a Razer Naga... L/R click and the 5 button on the keypad for missiles is generally my weapon setup. Ordinance on the extra top buttons. Scroll wheel click or z to zoom. Arms locked. I use left CTRL to look with the hat and press this button with the edge of my palm. Alt is easily accessible with the thumb. I almost never run into a situation where I must move my hands to push another key.

[CrashieJ]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Rant thread!

What The heck is up with the arms lock? I get n00bs and scrubs using it, but seriously, why else would you use it? Can't hold your arm and torsos together?

Just had an AWESOME match on Tourmaline. We were down a LOT. I manage to get 5 kills on my ct cored Orion, and trash their last match, a ShadowHawk before going down.

Our last mech? A BoarsHead with no armor breaches. Our guy retreats to the turrets, in full zoom the whole time, and the trashed Shad hunts him down. Our team is thinking...cool. we got this, hard fought win.

Except our Boars Head had his lasers in arms lock. Could barely track the other mech. And after an excruciating 2 minutes of fat guy circling the fox, dies, costing us the game. GG JoolNoret, you fought well, our fatty should have won, but your skill was better than his. (And hey you killed me too, though I was trashed by the time we met. Still well done, sir!)

Moral of the story.. Arms Lock is for bads, and if you use it you should feel bad. Against mobile opponents, you will lose, almost every time.

Rant over.

Toggle... a word PGI has not learned the definition of since 1996.

[Captain Stiffy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

however did you survive before they implemented it? It is a relatively new addition.

Except that it's not?

Quote

3-19-13 update.
Cool Shot is activated by pressing Delete
New Controls

- Added Arm Lock gameplay option (ON by default)

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 22 April 2014 - 09:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Except that it's not?

correct. Late open beta. Aka, pretty new. Are you a post launch player? I am not ridiculing you, but my god, you are telling me you NEED the crutch?

[Captain Stiffy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

correct. Late open beta. Aka, pretty new. Are you a post launch player? I am not ridiculing you, but my god, you are telling me you NEED the crutch?

This is how I play the game and I wouldn't want it to be any other way. I also do alright for myself out there as a pug only player who could honestly care less about his ratio or score and just wants to play Battletech. Currently 269 / 154 in the new tracking. I left for a while because of the window glass and film grain and while they still cause me issues they are supposed to be adding a toggle for these as well.

It is not a question at all of "need". This is the feature around which I learned the game, based my playstyle and customized my mechs. This is what the game is to me. I feel completely and totally in control of the movement of my mechs and a change to this would absolutely drive me away forever because I am definitely not playing cat and mouse with the cursor all day and completely changing my playstyle.

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

This is how I play the game and I wouldn't want it to be any other way. I also do alright for myself out there as a pug only player who could honestly care less about his ratio or score and just wants to play Battletech. Currently 269 / 154 in the new tracking. I left for a while because of the window glass and film grain and while they still cause me issues they are supposed to be adding a toggle for these as well.

It is not a question at all of "need". This is the feature around which I learned the game, based my playstyle and customized my mechs. This is what the game is to me. I feel completely and totally in control of the movement of my mechs and a change to this would absolutely drive me away forever because I am definitely not playing cat and mouse with the cursor all day and completely changing my playstyle.

so I should be complaining because I learned the game and based my playstyle around Gauss Rifles without charge ups? Or because I can't dish out 2000K damage in my LRMboats anymore, which I learned them on? Things change, and sorry if you don't like it, but Arm lock should be one of them.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 April 2014 - 09:31 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

so I should be complaining because I learned the game and based my playstyle around Gauss Rifles without charge ups? Or because I can't dish out 2000K damage in my LRMboats anymore, which I learned them on? Things change, and sorry if you don't like it, but Arm lock should be one of them.

What rational reason do you have for this? It's your playstyle and you want to force it on others. Wrong.

[Ultimax]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 22 April 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

My truck crew is widely known in state as being one of the best in M2 gunnery. This is largely because I teach and enforce the use of the M2's traverse and elevation unit which locks the weapon in position for firing and allows fine repeatable adjustment. I cannot express how many people I've known in my 14 years of service who have pissed time and money downrange because they felt a T&E was a crutch, a cheat, or somehow less manly than spraying 300 rounds downrange to hit a target ONCE. Your complaint sounds just like those fools. If something works, if it increases my lethality and lowers my potential for collateral damage I WILL use it. Bottom line: pinpoint damage, more weapons can be mounted in stronger positions, and in the rare instances that I need the extra movement there is a momentary toggle (that I too wish was a push on/off)

And in case you think I'm talking out my ass, heres my gunner Harris wrecking face

And me on my Gunner down drill

They gave us 1000 rounds for the entire day run, we qualified first time go in 250.

Yes, my callsign really is Red 5. Yes, I say that im standing by as much as humanly possible on the radio for Lolz

Very cool post.


I just wanted to comment, because you took me out in a match in Canyon network a few days ago and I was struggling to even get a bead on you.

Your team lost but you played excellently. Nice to meet you, hope to play with/against you again.

[Captain Stiffy]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 22 April 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

It is certainly not an accident that the toggle has a key mapping. Players who have found comfortable use in the Arm Lock in tactical situations are free and welcome to continue doing so. Our goal is to offer a wide range of ways to pilot a Mech with no one particular way right or wrong (Except a few rounds I played the other night last night...Mistakes were made.)

Thank you. I do actually feel better about MWO knowing that you intend to keep this feature indefinitely. I am even more pleased with the fact that you want to offer us a wide range of control OPTIONS so that we can pilot our mechs in the way that feels most natural to us. I definitely like having a toggle available for control options whenever it makes sense to do so.

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

What rational reason do you have for this? It's your playstyle and you want to force it on others. Wrong.

carry harder, crutchwarrior, carry harder. But first learn to read the entirety of the post and actually remotely comprehend the situation.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 April 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

What rational reason do you have for this? It's your playstyle and you want to force it on others. Wrong.

Because what he's saying doesn't affect anything and what you're saying is reinforcing the dominant meta while getting noobs destroyed without them even knowing.

[Captain Stiffy]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 22 April 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

My truck crew is widely known in state as being one of the best in M2 gunnery. This is largely because I teach and enforce the use of the M2's traverse and elevation unit which locks the weapon in position for firing and allows fine repeatable adjustment. I cannot express how many people I've known in my 14 years of service who have pissed time and money downrange because they felt a T&E was a crutch, a cheat, or somehow less manly than spraying 300 rounds downrange to hit a target ONCE. Your complaint sounds just like those fools. If something works, if it increases my lethality and lowers my potential for collateral damage I WILL use it. Bottom line: pinpoint damage, more weapons can be mounted in stronger positions, and in the rare instances that I need the extra movement there is a momentary toggle (that I too wish was a push on/off)

And in case you think I'm talking out my ass, heres my gunner Harris wrecking face

And me on my Gunner down drill

They gave us 1000 rounds for the entire day run, we qualified first time go in 250.

Yes, my callsign really is Red 5. Yes, I say that im standing by as much as humanly possible on the radio for Lolz

Exactly this. With the arm lock off making fine adjustments to your downrange targeting is specious at best plus creates a lag between your adjustment and the positioning of your torso, decreasing accuracy for combined firing of arm and torso based weapons. This reason alone is enough to indicate that NOT using the arm lock toggle is the greater fail.

Lyoto Machida, on 22 April 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

Because what he's saying doesn't affect anything and what you're saying is reinforcing the dominant meta while getting noobs destroyed without them even knowing.

Making the game harder to control is not the answer.