401 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

yeah there is noting like shooting at the guy on top of crimson straight with LRMs, only to watch not a single one land on target due to all the AMS rounds firing through the floor and the cavern.

if you think LRMs are over powered you seriously need to learn how to play.

Dazzer, on 22 April 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

the problem is that the current 'play' is hiding the 100 ton assault mech behind a building. That is not Mechwarrior.

using cover is indeed Mechwarrior.

[Lyoto Machida]

Dazzer, on 22 April 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

the problem is that the current 'play' is hiding the 100 ton assault mech behind a building. That is not Mechwarrior.

Not my problem your skillset is lacking and that's all you know how to do.

Learn to play.

[meteorol]

I see a maximum of two LRM mechs per team, while there are about 6-8 AC/PPC mechs.

Also, could a mod please close this thread which is just a repost of his thread from a month ago?

[Appogee]

Hawks, on 22 April 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

it makes the game look like a cheap piece of tat someone cobbled together in their lunch break.

Now come on, don't be ridiculous. It took several lunch breaks to cobble together this game.

Edited by Appogee, 23 April 2014 - 01:45 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

meteorol, on 23 April 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

I see a maximum of two LRM mechs per team, while there are about 6-8 AC/PPC mechs.

Also, could a mod please close this thread which is just a repost of his thread from a month ago?

Yeah, but those 2 usually wipe out the 8 AC/PPC mechs.

[Revorn]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 April 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Yeah, but those 2 usually wipe out the 8 AC/PPC mechs.

ROFL.

Looks like you have a bad Team then. Never happend to me. Imho.

[Lyoto Machida]

Revorn, on 23 April 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

ROFL.

Looks like you have a bad Team then. Never happend to me. Imho.

7 kills. Close enough...

[Revorn]

Yeah, Premade Missler can sometimes be nasty, especially in Pug Games. But usualy LRMs arent worth their Tonnage, if the Enemy knows what to do. Imho.

If the Enemy uses Cover for aproaching, i sometimes dont do more then 60 dmg with my Missles. But experiences may varry.

[Lynx7725]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 April 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

7 kills. Close enough...

Hey! A fellow Orion-V LRMurai. Well met.

[Karl Streiger]

Didn't i wrote yesterday that a single LRM isn't a problem - that even a single "full" LRM Boat isn't a problem?
But seriously...you can have 12 - Dragons with 1 LRM 10 each - and they become a problem.

If your mech get hit by >100 LRMs in a single moment....you are almost dead in the water...

if a Stalker with 60LRMs and Artemis and TAG is able to kill my double AMS Atlas with a LOS - its balanced...simple because he has 33t of weapons (without ammunition) - with 33t of ammunition you should be able to kill almost any target with LOS.


So problem starts with the overrated damage and precision of indirect fire.
This "mode" has to be nerved.... not the LRM as a whole

[SgtMagor]

light mechs are probably best to stop those missile boats long enough until some mediums can come along and take it out.

[Karl Streiger]

SgtMagor, on 23 April 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

light mechs are probably best to stop those missile boats long enough until some mediums can come along and take it out.

You can also spot for a "hole" in the enemy line - and use your Stalker or Catapract (reason i hate the 4X) for what they are supposed to do - break through and exploit.

Its a pitty that those Trial Stalkers are gone...the A1 is a harder target when you don't have ECM

[Appogee]

I've been saying all along: LRMs aren't the problem, it's boating of LRMs that is the problem. (Same as boating of PPCs was a problem.)

I ran a little experiment on LRMs over the past month...

I decided to buy and Master three Kintaros. One of them I made a Streakboat+MLs. The other two I turned into LRM5 boats+MLs. They were otherwise identical, with fast engines. No Artemis. No TAG.

I finished Eliting them a week ago. Guess which has the highest average damage per match, highest k/d ratio...?

The LRM boat with the most LRM5s.

It has a k/d of more than 3, and averages 400 damage per match, even though I am mostly PUGGING and would be the upper quartile of Elo. And I was being a lazy LRMer... I was just standing at the back, using the locks of others to spam LRM5s at targets I mostly couldn't even see. As a result, my LRM accuracy was only 39% ... But meh, who cares when your Medium is averaging 400 damage and 3 kills, in PUG games, without TAG or Artemis, and without even trying very hard.

So, you can decide for yourself whether a Kintaro spamming LRM5s at unseen targets, achieving those kinds of stats, outperforming a Streaktaro, is "balanced" or not.






----

Note: Before any self-proclaimed LRM expert cries "LOL derp no LRMs in comps" let me point out that I'd never take this Mech into a 12 man competitive match. A FLD Shadowhawk would always be a better choice in that kind of match. But I don't think we're confining our consideration of balance to only 12-man metahumping in this thread, are we?

Edited by Appogee, 23 April 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[Revorn]

12 LRM 10 shooting from 12 Mechs at once. Man what a nice Picutre. I realy like to see this happen, but unfortunaly i encountering not more than 2 Misslers per Game. Otfen iam the only one and my 1-4 LRm10s are easyly taken out by Enemy AMS.

[Lyoto Machida]

Revorn, on 23 April 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

Yeah, Premade Missler can sometimes be nasty, especially in Pug Games. But usualy LRMs arent worth their Tonnage, if the Enemy knows what to do. Imho.

If the Enemy uses Cover for aproaching, i sometimes dont do more then 60 dmg with my Missles. But experiences may varry.

It was just me and Lohmis (a fellow 9th Sword unitmate) in our group. The other two Kuritans in Alpha lance were there by sheer luck...never dropped with them before.

LRMs can be deadly in PUGs but are usually ineffective (and not seen much) in 12 mans.

[Revorn]

Yeah in 12 mans they realy suck. Sometimes i see a group bringing in 1 Missleboat and it can become quite intresting, but thats realy rare.

In PUGs, it depends much on the enemy. Imho. I usualy encounter much ECM and heavy AMS, so LRMs are hard to play, But in some Rounds, LRMs realy shine. But the experience may differ heavily for various Players, as it seems.

Edited by Revorn, 23 April 2014 - 02:45 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Revorn, on 23 April 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

12 LRM 10 shooting from 12 Mechs at once. Man what a nice Picutre. I realy like to see this happen, but unfortunaly i encountering not more than 2 Misslers per Game. Otfen iam the only one and my 1-4 LRm10s are easyly taken out by Enemy AMS.

although it were only 8 mens i used the Dragon as inofficial "Tamar Jaeger" Trainingsmech back in ClosedBeta.... it had everything you need to teach newbs - AC 5, LRMs, the power of R.. pinpoint problems with arm mounted weapons, energy weapons and the power of focus fire, speed and some armor and a vulnerable hit box

Back then you dropped with the same "class" ranking as they want to "implement" -> 8 heavy Mechs = 8 heavy mechs on the other team (at that time -> mostly LRM C4s or Gauss K2s, with some Gauss Dragons)

Line of fire -> focus -> coordination was always dead mechs at the other team.
I also used this this coordination without - talking at TS...you didn't have to.
all you need to do was to : open team chat - hit a single key - > focus fire

so coordination and tactic > builds

ECM killed tactic and increased the importance of builds (without ECM I'm sure we would never have seen the PPC Meta - because you couldn't focus with team chat - you have to bring the firepower of a team on your own)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 April 2014 - 02:38 AM.

[Durandal]

The thing I never understand about these posts is always the point where someone complains about getting LRM'd down by 2-3 boats and having no chance. I've played a lot of rounds...and in every single one of them where I got massacred by LRMs, I know that I can point to the exact reason it happened: I screwed up. Engaged and pushed too far, failed to notice the flanks changing as my team maneuvered behind me, failed to notice the scout mech tagging us, even failed to notice the UAV that was above my head a couple times until I learned to look for it. But the central point in all of those was the same: it was MY fault that I was so vulnerable to LRMs at that moment.

As I've played more and more, it's gotten easier to realize that if you're getting pounded by LRMs, it's either because you're doing something very wrong, or the other team is doing something very right, if not both. On the other side, I've had rounds where I dropped a UAV in one of my speediest mechs, and watched as 8-12 enemies simply stood still...directly under it while missiles tore them apart. Same goes for matches where I've sniped with an ECM mech, tagging 90% of the team while they stood absolutely still (Alpine is the easiest map to do this on, if you start on the side that isn't immediately on top of Sniper Hill). The moral lesson has been the same every time, that the team that is more maneuverable and adaptable in their teamwork succeeds, while the other side complains about the LRM Spam.

If LRMs are tearing you up, you need to figure out why. Maybe it's a matter of trying to take the shortest path to an area, which makes you cut through open field instead of sticking to cover and taking longer to get there. Maybe your team lucked out and has 12 mechs without ECM, making you easier to spot and hit. Or maybe you're just being outplayed too...it happens. Maybe if more people took the time to figure out their weak points and work on improving them, these nerf screams could die out a bit...but this is the internet, and logic has no place here.

...

I will, however, concede that the AMS firing through mountains/buildings/etc is pretty bad

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 23 April 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

Didn't i wrote yesterday that a single LRM isn't a problem - that even a single "full" LRM Boat isn't a problem?
But seriously...you can have 12 - Dragons with 1 LRM 10 each - and they become a problem.

If your mech get hit by >100 LRMs in a single moment....you are almost dead in the water...

if a Stalker with 60LRMs and Artemis and TAG is able to kill my double AMS Atlas with a LOS - its balanced...simple because he has 33t of weapons (without ammunition) - with 33t of ammunition you should be able to kill almost any target with LOS.


So problem starts with the overrated damage and precision of indirect fire.
This "mode" has to be nerved.... not the LRM as a whole

Karl, I am sorry but no. 12 Dragons would be a stretch, but it is a common Heavy Kuritan BattleMech. My objective is to kill your team. So however my side gets that objective complete is fair game, so long as I am not using a cheat or violate the Ares conventions according to PGI.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

Karl, I am sorry but no. 12 Dragons would be a stretch, but it is a common Heavy Kuritan BattleMech. My objective is to kill your team. So however my side gets that objective complete is fair game, so long as I am not using a cheat or violate the Ares conventions according to PGI.

If that would be real "war" you are right (but you would throw the Ares convention out of the window at a specific time)

with god like Devs that could cripple/change the game with a single line of code.... or a room cleaner that simple plug of the server.

So when LRMs are the "state of the art" killing weapon, than you don't need other weapons - and you don't need other mechs than those that have tons of LRMs.... but of course at some time - somebody tries to "neutralize" the thread of enemy LRMs by using something like AMS - Super Tropper AMS or the ubrella of the gods - (ECM) - and you have something that renders LRM useless.... and the game goes on and on and on and on.

The best balance for the game would be the full - total war - Dark Age equipment - leave it up to the players to balance weapons by using counter mechanism to specific weapons.

That should stop the QQ mechanism of MWO. Simple - I think LRMs are OP - i used the full AMS package including, Chaff and Reactive armor.... (but hell i die because of multiple PPCs hits.....- look i can add blue shield system..... i die because I'm hit by multiple lasers..... well .... i can use reflective.... heck i die because of LRMs.... you have to find a place.

Most complains are based with the "hidden" idea - i don't like that people x or y use weapon z with good afford. They kill me - but i want to kill them with weapon z12 - so buff my guns and nerf theirs....

Anyhow.... its a simple fact that multiple boating of a specific kind of weapon (mostly on more as 2 mechs causes some serious balancing issues) So you have to look at the mechanics - not at the weapon stats itself - simple "nerfing" a weapon has increased negative side effects on those that don't boat.

And please don't tell me that boating is cannon....
Give me an MWO - where the look of an stock AWS-8Q in the open makes you freeze - instead of a humorless grin and the promises of an easy kill - if PGI would be able to make canon stock builds viable - we wouldn't have those dropship loads of dung about balance