104 replies to this topic

[Morgana]

Simple analogy that seems to be being overlooked:

You go into a grocery store to buy a bottle of soda. Cost? hmm say $1.29 plus the 20 minute wait at the checkout line.

You go into a convenience store, the same bottle of soda now cost $1.79, but you only have to wait 2 minutes at the checkout.

You are going to pay more, FOR THE CONVENIENCE. It has nothing to do with all the math being done here, and everything to do with time.

On the flip side: yea, it is a bit of a bummer that someone could gather all the Mastered 'Mechs I have, in a week's time if they have the cash to throw about, that took me a year and a half to acquire. The biggest difference? I know the nuances of the mech. It's a Pay 2 "Own", not necessarily Pay2Win.

[IraqiWalker]

Morgana, on 23 April 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

Simple analogy that seems to be being overlooked:

You go into a grocery store to buy a bottle of soda. Cost? hmm say $1.29 plus the 20 minute wait at the checkout line.

You go into a convenience store, the same bottle of soda now cost $1.79, but you only have to wait 2 minutes at the checkout.

You are going to pay more, FOR THE CONVENIENCE. It has nothing to do with all the math being done here, and everything to do with time.

On the flip side: yea, it is a bit of a bummer that someone could gather all the Mastered 'Mechs I have, in a week's time if they have the cash to throw about, that took me a year and a half to acquire. The biggest difference? I know the nuances of the mech. It's a Pay 2 "Own", not necessarily Pay2Win.

Not to mention they need to spend stupidly idiotic (I can't emphasize this hard enough) amounts of money to do that, while you didn't spend nearly as much.

[Mechteric]

Anyone who thinks this game is Pay-2-Win isn't really looking at this whole situation properly and logically. The issue with the CBill direct purchase isn't that its possible now, because its always been possible. In fact you still get more CBills per MC spent buying and selling a mech (via Champions, sales).

The issue is that they are stiffing people who actually choose to directly purchase CBills, people who aren't in the know to buy a a Champion mech and sell it instead. That's just wrong.

[CaptnRobAnybody]

Its funny I have never once said gee if only there was a way to buy C-bills, if Im short I just grind a bit and get what I want. I havent spent real money on this game in a few months and I have even gotten 2 mechs for free, so thank you PGI, but no thanks keep you "special" deal.

[xWiredx]

They've been told repeatedly from the beginning that their economics are completely ****** up and they've listened 0% of the time. Selling c-bill packages that make no sense aren't really a surprise. It seems like the whole of PGI is incredibly bad at math.

[Roadbeer]

DaZur, on 23 April 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

I dunno...
<snip>
Which understandably is their fault... but still.

I don't think anyone is actually mad that the deal exists, except those who foolishly think it's P2W, it's just... let me explain it like this.

I own a store, and I sell prepackaged boxes of widgets and loose widgets as well. On the boxes of widgets, I'll accept Credit Cards or cash (except there are some that are Credit Card only), but on individual widgets, I only accept cash. Now, you can buy boxes of widgets, and sell it back to me but used or not, you're selling them at a "loss".

Now you need some cash to buy individual widgets, because you really don't want a box of widgets right now but there is only one ATM in the area, it takes a long time to get there, but you get your whole $20 dollars worth out of it. You realize that if you buy a $20 box of widgets from me, you can sell it back to me for $9. It isn't a great deal, but you REALLY need the cash for that individual widget.

After a couple years of this, I get the bright idea to put in an ATM machine myself. I see that people are willing to accept $9 for a $20 worth of widgets when they sell them back to me. So I give you two choices. You can buy a box of widgets off of me for $20 and sell it back to me for $9 OR you can use my ATM machine, and when you deduct increments $20 from your account, I give you between $10 and $8.50 per $20 depending on how large of a withdrawal you make.

Either way, you're not getting your $20 value unless you keep the box of widgets and use it as long as you want, then sell it back. but if you're just buying boxes of widgets to sell them, or using my ATM, you're just screwed.

[Tezcatli]

Yeahhh. it seems like a huge oversight that you can buy a mech with MC and then sell it for more C-bills then this. But whatever. It doesn't matter then.

[RancidSnivel]

OK It's nice, but where can I do this purchase?? I can't find this option anywhere... Help me please

[ramp4ge]

IraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

The best redeeming quality this game had was being NOT a Pay to win game. I don't care that the values are bad, the fact that this package exists is making me lose hope that it will stay that way. I might end up losing my "White Knight" ribbon in my signature because of this.





Yeah, it's not a real pay to win game, yet, but it's close for those dumb enough to try:

1-Grind one mech with tons of XP (real easy, I got over a mil XP on my COM-2D just waiting to be converted, and I play that mech just a bit more than casually, it's also not a big damage breaker (over 500 per game), with better mechs I can easilly get that and more).

2-Buy MC,

3-Buy C-Bills with MC,

4-Use C-Bills bought with MC to buy and upgrade a mech

5-Use MC to convert XP to GXP

6- Fully master new mech without playing a single match.

There are those with more money than brains, and even this kind of thing (bad rates, intentionally bad I hope) won't stop them.

Thankfully, unlike most pay to win games, in this one skill is still the biggest factor, and most of us don't field a mech until they've fully, or almost fully, customized it.



EDIT: because additional quotes and stuff.

That's not really pay-to-win tho, because you can do exactly the same thing without spending a dime.

Buying in-game currency with real money is not pay-to-win because you can get the same amount of ingame currency without spending any real money.

Paying for time =/= paying for power.

World of Tanks was pay-to-win with premium ammo and premium consumables because it granted you an advantage that you could only obtain by spending premium currency.

Now that premium ammo and premium currency is available with ingame currency, it's no longer pay-to-win, since the advantage is available to everyone.

Some could argue that premium-only 'Mechs are pay-to-win, but that'd only be true if premium 'mechs offered a distinct combat advantage over their non-premium counterparts. Otherwise, it's just a means of obtaining ingame currency faster. It's paying for time, not paying for power.

Edited by ramp4ge, 23 April 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

"We know it can be a hassle to scrape up all those C-Bills from your enemies on the battlefield. (Because we nerfed C-Bill rewards when 12v12 dropped) Good news, ComStar will now issue C-Bills when you redeem MC in the Store! (Like you're surprised we're thinking of new ways to get you to blow MC, amirite?) Head on over to the Bundles section of the Store to see all available packages and stop worrying about collecting those leftover scraps from the spoils of war. (You know, salvage? The most important thing in Battletech?)"

Edited by OuttaAmmo NoWai, 23 April 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

RancidSnivel, on 23 April 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

OK It's nice, but where can I do this purchase?? I can't find this option anywhere... Help me please

On the first page, on the image in the first post, it says "Now available in the bundle section of the store."

Did you check the bundle section of the store?

[RancidSnivel]

OOOhhhh.... Sorry, I didn't search in the game... Thx

[Darth Futuza]

IraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

The best redeeming quality this game had was being NOT a Pay to win game. I don't care that the values are bad, the fact that this package exists is making me lose hope that it will stay that way. I might end up losing my "White Knight" ribbon in my signature because of this.





Yeah, it's not a real pay to win game, yet, but it's close for those dumb enough to try:

1-Grind one mech with tons of XP (real easy, I got over a mil XP on my COM-2D just waiting to be converted, and I play that mech just a bit more than casually, it's also not a big damage breaker (over 500 per game), with better mechs I can easilly get that and more).

2-Buy MC,

3-Buy C-Bills with MC,

4-Use C-Bills bought with MC to buy and upgrade a mech

5-Use MC to convert XP to GXP

6- Fully master new mech without playing a single match.

There are those with more money than brains, and even this kind of thing (bad rates, intentionally bad I hope) won't stop them.

Thankfully, unlike most pay to win games, in this one skill is still the biggest factor, and most of us don't field a mech until they've fully, or almost fully, customized it.

That last bit is why this doesn't really bother me. So what if they get cheap mechs? They still can't beat me. It's more like Pay-Not-To-Grind. (Which is actually not that bad of an idea actually...)

Edited by Darth Futuza, 23 April 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

ramp4ge, on 23 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

That's not really pay-to-win tho, because you can do exactly the same thing without spending a dime.

Buying in-game currency with real money is not pay-to-win because you can get the same amount of ingame currency without spending any real money.

Paying for time =/= paying for power.

World of Tanks was pay-to-win with premium ammo and premium consumables because it granted you an advantage that you could only obtain by spending premium currency.

Now that premium ammo and premium currency is available with ingame currency, it's no longer pay-to-win, since the advantage is available to everyone.

Some could argue that premium-only 'Mechs are pay-to-win, but that'd only be true if premium 'mechs offered a distinct combat advantage over their non-premium counterparts. Otherwise, it's just a means of obtaining ingame currency faster. It's paying for time, not paying for power.

Yep, in my following posts, after I actually thought some more about it, and did the math in my head, I realize that this is no where near as bad as I thought it would be.

Darth Futuza, on 23 April 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

That last bit is why this doesn't really bother me. So what if they get cheap mechs? They still can't beat me. It's more like Pay-Not-To-Grind. (Which is actually not that bad of an idea actually...)

Same answer.

[Chavette]

Nathan K, on 23 April 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

I am using my head, and since I can buy Hero mechs with less MC and sell them for more C-Bills...

I didn't argue on the numbers, its probably still way expensive, but there is logic behind it being more than buying mechs with mc outright.

[That Dawg]

Homeless Bill, on 22 April 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Don't be fooled.

well, at least finally they're out in the open about selling the game out for real money.

Totally explains the assaults slinging weapons with abandon I've seen lately- you know, a top tier mech acting like a guy who just downloaded the game?

ramp4ge, on 23 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

That's not really pay-to-win tho, because you can do exactly the same thing without spending a dime.

Actually its EXACTLY the same.
When you grind a mech you learn it, you appreciate it, you understand it.
As I said in an earlier post, some nit BUYS an atlas DDC, and is typing in questions like "does ecm work", "whats the best mech" and a litany of other noob questions- meanwhile my lance got saddled with a character who clearly does NOT know whats going on.
come 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-this will be a real pain in the ssa

[That Dawg]

IraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

First of all, No matter how much they allow you to buy things with MC, that will never replace skill. Skill has been so far the only deciding factor in this game.

you're looking at this exactly like someone selling the product.
And you hit the nail on the head. It will cripple your odds of winning if you get one or more of the "golly, look what I bought" mechs on your team. I'm already seeing, didn't understand it completely until I spotted this thread

[Roadbeer]

ThatDawg, on 24 April 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

well, at least finally they're out in the open about selling the game out for real money.

Totally explains the assaults slinging weapons with abandon I've seen lately- you know, a top tier mech acting like a guy who just downloaded the game?




Actually its EXACTLY the same.
When you grind a mech you learn it, you appreciate it, you understand it.
As I said in an earlier post, some nit BUYS an atlas DDC, and is typing in questions like "does ecm work", "whats the best mech" and a litany of other noob questions- meanwhile my lance got saddled with a character who clearly does NOT know whats going on.
come 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-this will be a real pain in the ssa

1. you can say ass now
2. It's not selling out the game. There really isn't a problem with selling CBills for cash. it's a time vs money thing. If you have the time, grind away. If you have the money, you can buy your things, it's not going to give you the slightest advantage. Because it assumes that it's putting someone who doesn't have hours to invest in the game on the same level as someone who doesn't have the money to invest in the game. It's all equal depending on your point of view.
3. It's not P2W (see 2)

The real problem is that it's a n00b tax, not even a n00b tax so much as an uninformed tax. You don't have the detailed information to know it's a bad deal, so you buy it.

Bad deal is bad. And I won't even go into the whole argument I've made elsewhere about how it's a slippery slope for monetizing the already heavily penalized casual group players.

[Prezimonto]

I would say this falls into a category of ethically dubious business practice.

It's designed to earn money based on the ignorance of others rather than fair market value established by the game's normal buying and selling ratios.

In fact, all this is going to do is annoy new players who stick around long enough to learn they wasted their money.

Roadbeer, on 24 April 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

1. you can say ass now

but you can't say ***** b o n e r

Edited by Prezimonto, 24 April 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[That Dawg]

Roadbeer, on 24 April 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

1. you can say ass now
2. It's not selling out the game. There really isn't a problem with selling CBills for cash. it's a time vs money thing. If you have the time, grind away. If you have the money, you can buy your things, it's not going to give you the slightest advantage.

1) thats good to know

2) you realize the combination of words you used would allow an attorney to shred your statement.
The fact you CAN purchase an end game mech clearly indicates that you are bypassing the system.
Profit is not a crime-I hope pgi success, but claiming you are doing something for the "common man", or for the good of "those who can't spend the time", is precisely that, bypassing the system for money!
You can't say two and two is five no matter how its worded.
And hey, bravo, you guys do need a paycheck, but at least they should have the intestinal fortitude to be honest about it and not insult those of us who do take it seriously and buy founders packs, camo, hero mechs etc.
And again, my year old sig rings true.