39 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

So the big issue with ECM versus the counters is:

ECM does nothing but exist and provide a mobile deadzone. (1.5 tons, ECM slot)

Counters:
Tag: Must remain on target. (1 ton, 1 energy weapon slot.)
NARC: Must be fired at target, lasts limited duration. (4+ tons, 1 missile weapon slot)
PPC: Must be fired at target, last for a very limited duration. (7 tons, 1 energy slot)
BAP: Must be kissing the ECM mech to counter. (1.5tons)
UAV: One time use, limited duration, static (and destroyable) consumable. (No weight, module slot)

-------------------------

Seems pretty unfair to me that ECM just sits passively and works for 1.5 tons without input from the pilot...

So I propose:
In order for an ECM mech to be un-targetable by an opposing mech, he must train his crosshairs on the opposing mech to achieve the effect! (Constantly, like TAG)

Makes perfect (Russpaulian) sense!


Who is with me?!
Anyone?
....
Bueller?

Edited by Livewyr, 15 April 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Wolfways]

I'd rather PGI just made the equipment do what it's supposed to do.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Better to rework all the electronic warfare gear into a system of overlapping buffs and penalties (in other words soft counters) rather than modifying the existing system of cancellation and overriding (or hard counters).

Make ECM do the following:
- impose a +50% lock-on timer when trying to lock any covered mech.
- increase group size for incoming missiles by +25%
- reduce tracking rate/manueverability for incoming missiles by -10%
- reduce detection range by 25%
- reduce NARC broadcast distance by 50%
- reduce BAP detection distance by 50%
- increase target information timer by 100%

Make TAG do the following:
- reduce lock-on timer by 30%
- reduce missile group size by 10%
- increase missile tracking/maneuverability by 20%

Make NARC do the following:
- reduce lock-on timer by 25%
- provide a target beacon to all friendlies inside 800m, regardless of line of sight (400m under ECM)
- reduce missile group size by 30%
- increase missile tracking/maneuverability by 25%

Make BAP do the following:
- inside 180m, detect any mech, regardless of power state or line of sight (90m under ECM)
- reduce target information gathering timer by 10%
- reduce lock-on timer by 10%
- increase sensor detection range by 25%

Make Artemis IV with line of sight to the target do the following:
- reduce lock-on timer by 30% (does not affect SSRMs)
- allow ASRMs to lock-on with only slight guidance capability (very low tracking/maneuverability)
- reduce missile group size by 20%

Take these as simply starting suggestions, not as final, balanced values.

The idea in general would be for all of the systems to interact and stack one with another (duplicates do not stack, only unique effect source item types). Even a worse-case scenario would never remove an entire weapon system from one's payload, nor would any electronic system ever be rendered useless by any other.

[White Bear 84]

Roll back ECM so it does what ECM is supposed to do...

[Livewyr]

Nobody seems to like my idea...

*sad face*

[Jaeger Gonzo]

we want ECM to be what is supposed to be, not what PGI invented whitout any clue

[Trauglodyte]

Wolfways, on 15 April 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'd rather PGI just made the equipment do what it's supposed to do.

ECM does what it is supposed to do. PGI just furthered its capabilities when they created the current lock-on mechanism for LRMs and Streaks and applied current timeframe electronics jamming similarities to it. I was never an EWO and don't know anyone that was so I'll defer to those that might be. I think the only thing that ECM does in game that doesn't currently exist is the hard countering of missile locks. And by that, I mean, electronics jamming does occur as it allows top militaries to counter countries using old tech but I don't know that it would allow for a electronics craft, like an updated Prowler, going up against our own military hard ware. Anyone?

Anyway, this is the pillar the PGI is utilizing:

http://www.radartuto...cm/ja05.en.html

[poopenshire]

Sounds like everyone here does not know how to counter ECM.

Its rather easy as a scout to TAG and ECM mech... I do it all the time, infact I run scout for my team quite well, and lock those ECM in for LRMs to bust them before the get close enough to have any effect

and ECM counters ECM.....

OMG you mean you could have your own ECM teammates countering those ECM enemies????!!!!

I see more teams using split ECM, half the ECM mechs are cover, half on countering (it also messes with their radars up close <180m).

[Mcgral18]

poopenshire, on 16 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Sounds like everyone here does not know how to counter ECM.

Its rather easy as a scout to TAG and ECM mech... I do it all the time, infact I run scout for my team quite well, and lock those ECM in for LRMs to bust them before the get close enough to have any effect

and ECM counters ECM.....

OMG you mean you could have your own ECM teammates countering those ECM enemies????!!!!

I see more teams using split ECM, half the ECM mechs are cover, half on countering (it also messes with their radars up close <180m).

The trial Cat A1 doesn't understand this.

In fact, it can't do a darned thing about it because PGI chose to gimp an entire selection of weapons entirely, instead of just giving it some extra time to lock.

[Livewyr]

poopenshire, on 16 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Sounds like everyone here does not know how to counter ECM.

Its rather easy as a scout to TAG and ECM mech... I do it all the time, infact I run scout for my team quite well, and lock those ECM in for LRMs to bust them before the get close enough to have any effect

and ECM counters ECM.....

OMG you mean you could have your own ECM teammates countering those ECM enemies????!!!!

I see more teams using split ECM, half the ECM mechs are cover, half on countering (it also messes with their radars up close <180m).

Sounds like someone didn't read the OP...
I literally stated all the current counters.. and how they're used.

Btw: while you're in your scout mech, Tagging the enemy ECM mech..
What else are you doing? What are you contributing in any other capacity? (Besides presenting your CT consistently to be cored.)
What is that ECM mech doing? (Besides anything and everything else.)

[poopenshire]

Livewyr, on 16 April 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Sounds like someone didn't read the OP...
I literally stated all the current counters.. and how they're used.

Btw: while you're in your scout mech, Tagging the enemy ECM mech..
What else are you doing? What are you contributing in any other capacity? (Besides presenting your CT consistently to be cored.)
What is that ECM mech doing? (Besides anything and everything else.)

Alas I did read your OP, and my statement is reinforced.

I have a my Cicada X5 customized for anti ECM without using ECM.

TAG, BAP, Enhanced Sensor module, for the first 2 to 3 minutes I am scouting at 140kph. reporting in lances, movement, as well as load-out (BAP and sensor module allow me to pick up targets >1000m away). once our leader assess the data he orders a response to the data we have gathered. Typically that includes a target prioritization. My role then switches to target spotting for LRMs and fire support mechs. Typically in this role I can rack up 20 to 30 spotting assists with NARC/TAG bonus. While at the same time I can also LRM fire with X5 for some added damage and enemy movement updates (your AMS gives you away). Once the battle turns in our favour I continue to spot targets for the big boys, but also then am able to give away my position and move in closer and support with Medium Lasers and more LRM fire. While my damage and kills in this role are never huge, my spotting assists and NARC/TAG bonus and EXP are. So many pilots forget its not about kills and damage in a team environment.

Edited by poopenshire, 16 April 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Livewyr]

poopenshire, on 16 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Alas I did read your OP, and my statement is reinforced.

I have a my Cicada X5 customized for anti ECM without using ECM.

TAG, BAP, Enhanced Sensor module, for the first 2 to 3 minutes I am scouting at 140kph. reporting in lances, movement, as well as load-out (BAP and sensor module allow me to pick up targets >1000m away). once our leader assess the data he orders a response to the data we have gathered. Typically that includes a target prioritization. My role then switches to target spotting for LRMs and fire support mechs. Typically in this role I can rack up 20 to 30 spotting assists with NARC/TAG bonus. While at the same time I can also LRM fire with X5 for some added damage and enemy movement updates (your AMS gives you away). Once the battle turns in our favour I continue to spot targets for the big boys, but also then am able to give away my position and move in closer and support with Medium Lasers and more LRM fire. While my damage and kills in this role are never huge, my spotting assists and NARC/TAG bonus and EXP are. So many pilots forget its not about kills and damage in a team environment.

You're still missing the point.

Let's take your CDA-X5 example, and put it on a CDA-3M (with ECM)
The exact same thing you're doing (recon), only he doesn't have to look at you constantly (unless he's tagging you for shiggles), and he can apply damage (or look around) where ever he wants, and at the same time, he has your complete attention.
(Difference being he's not mounting LRMs.. maybe he's mounting a PPC or two and not consistently exposing himself to be shot.)

He requires your complete attention, while he does whatever he pleases...

Edited by Livewyr, 16 April 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[poopenshire]

just wanted to post some pics/examples of what anti-ECM and scouting can do...

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571591
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571592

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571593
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571594

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571596
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571595

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571598
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571599

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571604
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571605

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2567102
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2567103

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Fine if you're in a 12 on comms. Not so easy in a PUG match.

[Livewyr]

poopenshire, on 16 April 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

just wanted to post some pics/examples of what anti-ECM and scouting can do...

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571591
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571592

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571593
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571594

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571596
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571595

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571598
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571599

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571604
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2571605

http://knightwardens...219#pid=2567102
http://knightwardens...219#pid=2567103

Apparently, ECM is within 180m of your links.

[poopenshire]

I will give you that yes, its easier to do things with ECM, but your post sounds like no one can do anything without it.

I never see ECM as OP. There are always effective ways to counter it. Yes it does take my attention to TAG and ECM mech, but if I do it right and my team rains on him. This attention lasts less than 30 seconds.

[Livewyr]

poopenshire, on 16 April 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

I will give you that yes, its easier to do things with ECM, but your post sounds like no one can do anything without it.

I never see ECM as OP. There are always effective ways to counter it. Yes it does take my attention to TAG and ECM mech, but if I do it right and my team rains on him. This attention lasts less than 30 seconds.

The problem is- that you have to do all that just to counter something that he equipped, and could have forgot about for all it matters.

That is what makes it overpowered. You *have* to counter it to use LRMs against it at all.
If one applied that interaction to Energy weapons and/or ballistic weapons (needing something to be countered just to shoot it), there would be uproar.. despite the concept "not" being OP.

[EDIT: He seems to have disappeared.. why does that always happen to me?]
[EDIT 2: Nvm, he's back it seems.]

Edited by Livewyr, 16 April 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[poopenshire]

Livewyr, on 16 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

The problem is- that you have to do all that just to counter something that he equipped, and could have forgot about for all it matters.

That is what makes it overpowered. You *have* to counter it to use LRMs against it at all.
If one applied that interaction to Energy weapons and/or ballistic weapons (needing something to be countered just to shoot it), there would be uproar.. despite the concept "not" being OP.

[EDIT: He seems to have disappeared.. why does that always happen to me?]

Then set your ECM to disrupt and his won't work. You don't have to do anything, just he does to have cover, an ECM on Disrupt blocks his ECM and scrambles the Radar on those others near you. Not a biggie, so what if its only 180, your other tactics work as well.

It never hurts to use visuals anyway. Or wait since you don't have to do anything to use your eyes they must be OP.

Quick PGI, poke all our eyes out or give us blacked out mech windows.

[Livewyr]

poopenshire, on 16 April 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Then set your ECM to disrupt and his won't work. You don't have to do anything, just he does to have cover, an ECM on Disrupt blocks his ECM and scrambles the Radar on those others near you. Not a biggie, so what if its only 180, your other tactics work as well.

It never hurts to use visuals anyway. Or wait since you don't have to do anything to use your eyes they must be OP.

Quick PGI, poke all our eyes out or give us blacked out mech windows.

I see you're starting to become indignant, and it shows in the holes of your thought process.
1: Using a component to counter itself is not a reflection on how that component is *not* overpowered.
2: If I'm that close, I'm in immediate danger from* every weapon in the game. (Including LRMs since I'm in counter-mode)
3: If I'm using ECM to counter the other mech, I'm within 180 meters, which happens to coincide with the 180m deadzone for LRMs. (I don't want to be that close with LRMs anyways.)
4: All of that.. just so a team mate can shoot at him with LRMs?

Edited by Livewyr, 16 April 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

We could reach 15 different counters for ECM and nobody would be satisfied.

I think a lot of people just want LRMgeddon back.