89 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

We are talking 250 years of refinement.

Go see how compatible modern weapon systems are on a WWII tank. How well will they handle a TOW missile? Is modern armor even applicable to an archaic tank? (answer, NO, not without totally re-engineering everything to a point you essentially just rebuilt the tank from the ground up) Even a modern autoloading cannon would not be able to just be slapped in there.

And to boot, who in the Inner Sphere has the knowledge to fabricate, re-engineer or repair Clan Tech to keep it functional? Military Machines are hideously maintenance intensive, or they have a bad habit of breaking.

Abtakha Clan Techs?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 April 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Give Tiger Woods the old school and me the New Hotness and I bet Tiger still kicks my but!

Naw, trying to swing those old clubs, his back will spasm and he will be out by the third hole.

Which not coincidentally, is what the Great House found happening when they slapped that new tech onto old chassis,.... the failure rate was so high, and maintenence so intensive, they essentially shelved Clan Tech on active units (with a few well funded, r well connected, exceptions) until Operation Bulldog (where they had not coincidentally added the Nova Cats to the fold, had the economy of the whole IS backing them, and added a lot of SPoil in way of technical data, factories and bondsmen from the Smoke Jags.).

Joseph Mallan, on 24 April 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Which is why only the best Techs with awesome resources could get it done... Until Avanti's Angels put a Clan Gauss and 3 C MP Lasers on a Caesar in a Dropship Mechbay!

Yup, the true beginning of the end for Btech and FASA. It limped on through the Civil War, but let's face it, as bad as Clan Tech broke battletech, it destroyed it once the MixTech actually was allowed.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 April 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

Abtakha Clan Techs?

with access to what resources? We ain't talking MacGuyver.

[Mechteric]

Crossing my fingers for no cross-teching. Because there would pretty much be no reason to ever use IS weapons (just like there's _mostly_ no reason to ever use single heat sinks)

[Bobzilla]

I don't think there will be a reason for IS mechs to want Clan weapons. No clan weapons are going to do pinpont damage, but clan chasis will be able to stuff a lot of them. IS mechs will have less weapons but more pinpont dmg.

[Pariah Devalis]

Clan ERPPC. Clan LB-(2/5/10/20)X on slug mode. Gauss is gauss. Plenty of direct damage options.

[Mavairo]

No mixed tech ....allegedly.
Remember we weren't getting 3PV or Coolshots either.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 April 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Clan ERPPC. Clan LB-(2/5/10/20)X on slug mode. Gauss is gauss. Plenty of direct damage options.

Yup. Amazing how sometimes folks lose sight of the forest through the trees.

Personally really want clan large pulse lasers. My Summoner with LB or UAC, LPLaser and Streak6 should be a fun infighter. Or just running Config C.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 April 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

No, mixed tech will not be allowed. See the Command Chair posts regarding teh Clanz.


And this is a good thing, because otherwise IS mechs running Clan gear would be 100% superior to Clan Omnimechs running Clan gear, due to customization. Not to mention, certain mechs would be horribly broken with Clan tech, such as being able to place 2 UAC/10 in a Highlander or Victor's arm.

Beating Clan mechs and salvaging Clan tech was one of my reasons to root for this game in the first place. Another reason to remind myself what a sucker I was...

Edited by El Bandito, 24 April 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 24 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Beating Clan mechs and salvaging Clan tech was one of my reasons to root for this game in the first place. Another reason to remind myself what a sucker I was...

Well, now you'll just have to use a salvaged mech to use that salvaged tech.

But seriously, the current Omni customization rules in place would make Omnis 100% obsolete to Battlemechs that could customize anything, if those BMs could use Clan tech. Keeping the tech restricted to Omnis helps ensure that the Omnis will be viable. With any luck, any future IS Omnis will also be able to use Clan weapons (after all, they were literally designed from captured/salved Clan Omnis, and are meant to be able to carry Clan tech in the lore without any penalties). Of course, then the IS Omnis would be obsolete to Clan Omnis (cuz Clan Omnis get better XL, Endo, etc.), but I'm getting sidetracked here.

Now, if the restrictions were lifted for the Omnis, then I might be able to see merits to mixed tech (provided that the weapons themselves weren't horribly imbalanced).

[Khobai]

Quote

Clan ERPPC. Clan LB-(2/5/10/20)X on slug mode. Gauss is gauss. Plenty of direct damage options.

If those clan weapons are equal or better than IS weapons in addition to weighing less, then clan mechs will be ridiculously overpowered.The only way clan tech can be "balanced" 1:1 with IS mechs, while still having clan tech weigh less, is if clan tech is outright worse than IS tech.

So you can count on clan tech either having really high heat or really long cooldowns. Its the only way PGI can balance this mess. Unless PGI employs some other balance mechanism, like using matchmaker to somehow balance clan mechs by making them artificially weigh more than their actual tonnage. I.E. ghost tonnage (having a 75 ton madcat count as 85 tons for purposes of matchmaking, etc...)

Quote

Keeping the tech restricted to Omnis helps ensure that the Omnis will be viable.

If PGI caves in on letting omni mechs change their armor values, there will be no real downside to playing a heavy or assault omnimech. there will only be a downside to playing a light or medium that cant increase its engine size. im guessing the latter simply wont get used very often.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2014 - 08:26 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 24 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Beating Clan mechs and salvaging Clan tech was one of my reasons to root for this game in the first place. Another reason to remind myself what a sucker I was...

because mixtech always worked so well in the other MW games?

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

because mixtech always worked so well in the other MW games?

This is not supposed to be like other games. This is the first multiplayer focused MW game. I thought the devs could pull it off, using balancing or battle value system. Now I see that they have no capability to do it all along.

Hell, when the game was first advertised, I thought of playing as a House warrior defending the home and hearth from ruthless Clan invaders and salvaging some sweet tech, conquering planet after planet for the lord etc...

Boy, was I idealistic.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 April 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

El Bandito, on 24 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Beating Clan mechs and salvaging Clan tech was one of my reasons to root for this game in the first place. Another reason to remind myself what a sucker I was...

so if all you want is to slavage clan gear... why does IS stuff exsist? it works well in a progressive campaign but not in a everything needs to work for everyone PVP

we could have salvage mechanics but no mix tech, it invalidates IS weapons and clan chassis the way it's being set up.

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

No mixed tech ....allegedly.
Remember we weren't getting 3PV or Coolshots either.

i'd actually quote bryan saying no coolant it would invalidate our heat system... and then we got coolant modules... and soon many alphas were possible and ghost heat came. but yeah the certainty of what you're buying into is still the same. totally unpredicatble and dodgey.

Pygar, on 23 April 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

3) I sure hope that eventually clan stuff is available for C-bills, but idk one way or the other for sure.

i'm hoping clan mechs will be available for something other than c-bills like say honour points earned driving clan mechs {or clan trials for the freebee people} because 20mil for one decent clan mech {let alone 3 for leveling} is going to be stupid grind or borderline p2w as some good combos will be out of reach for free players for a long time.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 24 April 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 April 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

If PGI caves in on letting omni mechs change their armor values, there will be no real downside to playing a heavy or assault omnimech. there will only be a downside to playing a light or medium that cant increase its engine size. im guessing the latter simply wont get used very often.

Well, the Thor's main downside is having slightly less pod space than the Ryoken. After you add your "optimal" amount of armor to the Thor, you'll have 21 tons left over for guns. That's only 2 tons less than the Ryoken, but sometimes that little bit of extra weight can mean quite a big difference. The Thor may also have fairly bleh hardpoints, depending on how it turns out (Ryoken might have better HPs). The Ryoken is also quite a bit faster, for those of us who like speed (like me).

The Mad Cat doesn't really have a downside, other than an arguably too large engine (although still slower than the Ryoken). The assaults will both be slower still, especially the Daishi (won't even break 55 kph).

Edited by FupDup, 24 April 2014 - 08:34 PM.

[El Bandito]

GalaxyBluestar, on 24 April 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

so if all you want is to slavage clan gear... why does IS stuff exsist? it works well in a progressive campaign but not in a everything needs to work for everyone PVP we could have salvage mechanics but no mix tech, it invalidates IS weapons and clan chassis the way it's being set up.

PGI could have made Clan weapons not overpowered, just a bit different to work with--kinda like what they are doing to Clan weapons currently. That way, Clan salvage will not make my mech overpowered, just different. It adds variety.

For example, CLRMs can be less weight, but direct fire only. Then I can add it to an IS mech that primarily fights in the front line.

Lack of imagination, PGI has.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 April 2014 - 08:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 24 April 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

PGI could have made Clan weapons not overpowered, just a bit different to work with--kinda like what they are doing to Clan weapons now. That way, Clan salvage will not make my mech overpowered, just different. It adds variety.

For example, CLRMs can be less weight, but direct fire only. Then I can add it to an IS mech who primarily fights in the front line.

The problem lies in the Chassis. You should have figured that from the start.

OmniMechs have severe limitations. IS Chassis are almost fully customizable. With MixTec, even with Balanced weapons, there would be essentially no reason to use IS Weapons, or OmniMechs.

Had they put hard sized hardpoint limits and such on the IS mechs as we asked way back when, it might have worked. But then all the whinging about customizing mechs would have started, and you simply really can't have it both ways.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

The problem lies in the Chassis. You should have figured that from the start. OmniMechs have severe limitations. IS Chassis are almost fully customizable. With MixTec, even with Balanced weapons, there would be essentially no reason to use IS Weapons, or OmniMechs. Had they put hard sized hardpoint limits and such on the IS mechs as we asked way back when, it might have worked. But then all the whinging about customizing mechs would have started, and you simply really can't have it both ways.

If they had managed to butcher the hard points, weapon stats, information warfare, heat scaling, and mech scaling, I don't see why PGI can't butcher omni mech chassis limitations for the sake of balance and variety.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 April 2014 - 08:50 PM.

[Hawk819]

I'd love to have the IIC Variants. Namely, the Hunchback IIC!

[Mercer Skye]

One of the few things that MW4 got right in my opinion. I agree with Bishop and the rest on this point. It's an oversight that existed all the way up to MW4, and for some reason has reared its ugly head again.

Dedicated size restrictions on hardpoints, incorporating battle value instead of some arbitrary, ham-fisted weight modifier, and you could probably get away with mixtech, and have a situation where people are using combinations of everything, be it IS mechs with clan weapons, or clan mechs with IS weapons.

It's really just a matter of work vs profit. Whichever system ends up being the least work intensive, is going to win out because it's going to bring in the most money. Or at the very least, this is the impression I'm getting, I love the game, have seen a plethora of 'labor of love' games that have turned profits, but I just don't see it here.

There are means to make things awesome, net money, but I don't think PGI is going to prove to have the intestinal fortitude to attempt it.

[ArmandTulsen]

If using clan weapons on IS mechs means more money for the studio, then we will have it.

It's that simple.

Like the guy earlier said, we weren't supposed to have 3PV and flush coolant either, but lo and behold....