150 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

So... if/when PUGs get into the 'no-premade' queue... and fair no better... who will they blame then for their ROFLstompped wreck?

[Agent of Change]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

So... if/when PUGs get into the 'no-premade' queue... and fair no better... who will they blame then for their ROFLstompped wreck?

Sync Dropped Evil Pre-made Try Hards.

We covered this, pay attention

[Kjudoon]

Agent of Change, on 24 April 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sync Dropped Evil Pre-made Try Hards.

We covered this, pay attention

LOL... sorry, I TL:DRed everything between the OP and now.

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 April 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Monky]

MoonUnitBeta, on 24 April 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

half logic

Normally, you're pretty on the level, but it's pretty obvious why this idea works ; A: we already have a mostly solo pug environment in mid-low ELO, consistent groupers raise in ELO and go into the territory with high ELO pugs who already enjoy playing in challenging groups - otherwise you wouldn't be seeing any high ELO groups finding a match. The separation you are scared of already exists, it's called an ELO divide. This queue separation expands the possiblities both group and solo players have - groups could be relaxed to free form rather than 4 or less, expanding the number of possible teams and bringing back disgruntled vets who left due to the restrictions, and solo pugs who don't want to play super seriously at high level can play a relaxed game on demand.

Edited by Monky, 24 April 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

LOL... sorry, I TL:DRed everything between the OP and now.

Perfectly understandable, I forgive your lapse this once. Honestly if i wasn't already here I might just skip everything too.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

So... if/when PUGs get into the 'no-premade' queue... and fair no better... who will they blame then for their ROFLstompped wreck?

More experienced PUGs???

[Mavairo]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Yes a 2man premade, with an 8 year old on it, is feeding on PUGs!

When I get out my light mechs, the builds I see and the quality of play that comes with them, I think a 6 year old could feed on...
(hooray for different mech class elos)

[Almond Brown]

MeiSooHaityu, on 24 April 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

This will cause even more problems for the matchmaker.

The premade teams need individual players to back fill open spots for each game. They system would break without this (a lot of open slots or matches taking forever to launch).

If they DID make a sepearate room, they would have to offer a PUG a lot of incentives in XP or C-Bills to play in a mixed room. I still don't know if it would be enough or fair to premades doing it that way.

The only reason to have a PUG only room is for new players to allow them to get the hang of the game with less of a chance to be steamrolled. Maybe allow them to play PUG only rooms untill they hit 25 matches, then automatically bump them into mixed rooms from then on out (once they get their cadet bonus). Basically consider PUG only rooms as "Boot Camp".

That is the only way I could see that working reasonably.

Again, how to keep the Smurf's out of this Boot Camp? Smurf's really love Boot Camps. It has a sign on it and everything.

"Easy and high K/D rates here!"

Roadbeer, on 24 April 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Oh look,

Another "Evil Premade Boogeymen" ate my baby thread.

I am guessing that "thing" in Post #7 eats babies. (shudders)

[Dracol]

Flaming oblivion, on 24 April 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Simple if we chose to PuG and don't wish to feed the pre mades free wins through the following problems

*They know how each other play
*They can pick a really strong mech combination
*They have all the advantages that come with voice communication.

Give PuGs the choice to opt out of facing pre made teams. If your fine with facing pre mades wonderful, If not opt out.

This creates a fairer environment for all , The only people I'm hestitant to make this post because of are the ones that will go mental at this suggestion making any excuse they can to defend the "Target practice cannon fodder PuGs they've fed on for so long"

Flaming oblivion, I totally respect your desire for matches to be fair and enjoyable for all players, both the winning side by offering them a challenge; as well as the losing side by giving them a fair chance.

As of right now, in the live version of MW:O, there are times when this is not the case. Either one side dropping with a 4 man premade versus an all pug match, or one side with a 2, 3, or 4 man versus a team with a 4 man along with a 2,3, or 4 man (sometimes even 3 groups).

Come next tuesday (barring a catastrophe), no longer will there be a chance for a team to be dropped against 2 or 3 premades.

Now... that leaves one of two cases left. One team drops with a premade versus a team without one OR both teams drop with a premade.

Preferably, I hope its setup to only allow teams to both have a premade or none at all. But, no statement one way or the other has been presented by the devs.

In general, imho, having both teams drop with a single premade will enhance the experience for all parties involved.

- A lone mech starting a charge has a small chance for pugs to follow, where as a lance making an advancement drastically increases the odds pugs will follow the charge.

- A pilot responding to comms has a good chance to get fellow team mates to help in a situation, just by their movement and targeting.

- A coordinated lance acts as a focal point. Pugs can work the edges, flank, guard (all roles that can be achieved as "Rambos" ) the central lance of the drop

My question to you Flaming oblivion:
wouldn't it be a fair match if both teams have a premade? (keep in mind, premade lances are in Alpha lance and spawn opposite each other)
You suggest that no premades are allowed... but what are your thoughts on the idea that in every match that you're squaring off against a team with a premade, your own team has a premade as well?

[Almond Brown]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

So... if/when PUGs get into the 'no-premade' queue... and fair no better... who will they blame then for their ROFLstompped wreck?

Some may think you can kill the "Boogeyman" but you can't really kill him.

[AlmightyAeng]

Almond Brown, on 24 April 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Again, how to keep the Smurf's out of this Boot Camp? Smurf's really love Boot Camps. It has a sign on it and everything.

"Easy and high K/D rates here!"

A PuG only solo queue and a queue for new players are VERY different. If it's just a solo queue, Pappa Smurf deserves the opportunity to take his solo butt down there and clean house by himself.

[Almond Brown]

Ghost Badger, on 24 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

A PuG only solo queue and a queue for new players are VERY different. If it's just a solo queue, Pappa Smurf deserves the opportunity to take his solo butt down there and clean house by himself.

Oh, ok. I thought the topic was "how to prevent the Pug'rs from blaming everyone but themselves for their loses"... My bad.

[Agent of Change]

Almond Brown, on 24 April 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Oh, ok. I thought the topic was "how to prevent the Pug'rs from blaming everyone but themselves for their loses"... My bad.

I mean I think that's one of the topics going on here.

my current topic is that you shouldn't be afraid of the pre-made boogey man because they are likely 3-sheets to the wind on good scotch an blowing off steam with some friends, it 's the scary scary high ELO solo only pugs you need to worry about.

[Navy Sixes]

Boris The Spider, on 24 April 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

But pick-up-groups have never been one to moan about this imbalance, they just get on with it and play to the best of their ability.

On the other hand, many premade groups whinge that "they don't want to play against 'competitive teams,' they just want to "drop with their buds" (and [unspoken] lunch on easy PUG wins).

So it's no fun for them to play in an optimized competitive environment, but if you're solo trash you should shut up, L2P, and learn to enjoy your role as food.

Let's see how many 2-4 teams are really willing to give up the easy-cheese mode PUGs and go play in the group queue against other premade teams. My prediction is 'not many.' Mamma used to say, "It ain't no fun when the rabbit's got the gun."

[AlmightyAeng]

Tycho von Gagern, on 24 April 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

On the other hand, many premade groups whinge that "they don't want to play against 'competitive teams,' they just want to "drop with their buds" (and [unspoken] lunch on easy PUG wins).

You honestly think that? Let them...the same proponents for a group queue here on the forums will tear THEM a new figurative *******, too, because that's pathetic. Believe it or not...groups aren't posting "PuG's OMNOMNOMNOM."

Edited by Ghost Badger, 24 April 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[1453 R]

No. Matchmaking is borked enough as it is, we don’t need the buckets fractured even further.

Put on your big-boy pants and learn to deal with the fact that other players may end up coordinating better than you do. Half a dozen excellent pilots have put up half a dozen (or more!) threads each in Guides and New Player Help positing half a dozen ways per thread that you can, without a single word typed, improve coordination with other puglies on your team.

Trust me, I hate the bunch of frothing-mouthed savages you find on the average public TS just as much as the next guy, but the difference between you and me is that I don’t blame phantasmal Teamspeaking bogeymen for my losses. Either I was the honest suck, or my team was error-prone enough that we would have been outplayed by a bunch of one-armed chimpanzees on Vicadin. The average group drop does not affect the game nearly as much as you think it does, man.

[Mavairo]

Ghost Badger, on 24 April 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

You honestly think that? Let them...the same proponents for a group queue here on the forums will tear THEM a new figurative *******, too, because that's pathetic. Believe it or not...groups aren't posting "PuG's OMNOMNOMNOM."

Most of the time it's
"Dear god I hope Charlie lance isn't going to be filled with trial mechs or worse..."

[CygnusX7]

There's a reason this conversation comes up weekly... and it's not the new guys fault.
I've met some very helpful people on TS and some who I consider friends.

It's too bad there isn't at least a TS integration to the game.

I have my doubts that PGI could come up with a good comms solution. If they do I will apologize via VOIP at the beginning of each match.

Edited by CygnusX7, 24 April 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Monky, on 24 April 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Normally, you're pretty on the level, but it's pretty obvious why this idea works ; A: we already have a mostly solo pug environment in mid-low ELO, consistent groupers raise in ELO and go into the territory with high ELO pugs who already enjoy playing in challenging groups - otherwise you wouldn't be seeing any high ELO groups finding a match. The separation you are scared of already exists, it's called an ELO divide. This queue separation expands the possiblities both group and solo players have - groups could be relaxed to free form rather than 4 or less, expanding the number of possible teams and bringing back disgruntled vets who left due to the restrictions, and solo pugs who don't want to play super seriously at high level can play a relaxed game on demand.

Maybe I missed what you were saying, but if the separation already exists… why are we forcing it? It’s really going to cause more issues if we split (mainly because we have such a small player base at the moment, any attempt to specify the match maker will simply make it harder to match, see previous post.). Given the things you’ve listed, I’m not seeing the benefits outweigh the downsides. Only wasted resources to clear up some grey areas. If higher ELO groups are finding high ELO groups like you suggest, and pugs are in their own little “ELO divide” as you call it, then why do we need to force the separation? Because one pug didn’t think one of the games was fair? I’m pretty sure I recall PGI saying they try to put a premade on both sides, at a max of 1 per side (but I’m sure there’s backend systems that can override this to simply get people into games, which is a safety for when player numbers are low.)

Like you said, mostly those people in higher ELO are grouped up and the whole group reaps the benefits, driving their ELO up. It doesn’t quite say much about individual player skill per se and I’m sure they perform much like any other pug player unless they have actual knowledge about the meta and how to play it. As far as I’m concerned, they just happened to be on the winning team when the MM thought they would lose – which is most cases is true with pug players and this is part of the reason why the “ELO divide” exists. I’m not going to give much credit to ELO though, it has its own set of flaws, so moving on.

But, I don’t see how taking pugs out of the queue would magically make you able to make groups of any size? (since you’re pretty vague about how that happens,“This queue separation expands the possiblities both group and solo players have - groups could be relaxed to free form rather than 4 or less”) I’m not sure if you’re rooting for a purely segregated queue of “Just Pugs” and “Just Premade”, or if you are talking about a “Just Pugs” and a “Mixed Pug/Premade” queues? But regardless whatever combination it is, I’m wondering how you are thinking to fill empty spots when you have uneven premades fighting each other and no one in the Pug-&-Premade pool? This has been a common problem, one that relies on perfect matching premades, or pugs. And I don’t see how making a separate queue for pugs would fix this at all. Also, on the topic of “relaxed groups”, and assuming there are no pugs to fill spots, how do you balance organized 11 man (or 12? Depending how far you’re taking this relaxed groups thing) vs three 4man teams? I’d like to bet that even the 11 man team will succeed against three separate 4mans, simply due to the unified communication, plan, and understanding of the 11(or 12) man team.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 24 April 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Hawks]

Agree with the OP, and think it's hilarious that, of those who don't, so many feel they have to resort to snide innuendos to disparage those who don't share their view.