48 replies to this topic

[ColdHeat]

I'd like to talk about the overall fun aspect of the game and the fairness of matchmaking. Not only that in almost every second game there's at least one person unable to connect which leaves one team at a clear disadvantage (I even once had a match where my team missed a whole lance of 4 mechs through disconnect) but the fact that you can play great as a light or medium and your team still will lose with only 2 or 3 enemies dead like you never had a chance anyway because you roughly make an impact in these mechs.

So while it's reasonable that a locust or griffin can't be as powerful as an atlas unfortunately a lot of players seem to want to drive right at the beginning the biggest and baddest mech they can find.. usually assaults like the Atlas. Yet assaults bear the most power and therefor the most responsibility for their team and unfortunately the fact that the assault class is such attractive to new players means that games often get hopelessly lost for their team because some important few had no clue of what they were doing. To me this results in quite some frustration because you lose too many rounds with the feeling that the match was decided before it startet, rendering your team unable to deliver a thrilling fight to the opponent. That's a demoralizing experience I rarely had in WoT (yeah I know) because in that game you had to earn every extra tonnage of your tank by being forced to start with the smallest tanks around and having to play douzens of matches until you can advance one class higher.

Now I know that this wouldn't work as well for MWO and that PGI has a total different sale model for this game but still I sometimes wish you would be forced to start with a medium and having to earn your right to drive a heavy or assault. I feel like it would result in much more rewarding matches for everyone if those who have the most impact actually know what they are doing.

Edited by Egomane, 24 April 2014 - 03:11 AM.
added tags

[Nyte Kitsune]

Sadly fairness is lacking at the moment. Even with the 3/3/3/3 mechanic coming there are likely still going to be matches that seem unfair due to differing player skill levels and mech weight. As to players going for the Biggest, baddest mech, even I'm a little guilty of that (On this account, the other I pilot a TDR-9S Thunderbolt) and do indeed pilot an Atlas, Mind I chose it solely for the ECM option as I suck in lights so opted not to get the Raven and instead saved for the Atlas.

Now, I may not be the best Atlas pilot, nor may I top the charts on my team. But I also don't get killed that often unless I'm cored early (Happened 3x yesterday, 2x to AC 20 Ammo Explosions, and 1x to both the AC 20 and LRM/SRM ammos exploding (Though I survived the last detonation, but an Atlas with only a Head, CT, 2 Legs and no weapons had a short lifespan) after that I had 5 matches without dying, 3 of which we actually won (Lost one to my team not capping, and the other was 2 lances walking into an ambush).

I do agree with having to earn the right to pilot a mech of each class, maybe starting as a light or medium pilot. But sadly a bit late for that idea as many people have purchased alot of content (including mechs), perhaps this will be added as a feature down the line, doubtful, but would be cool in a Mission/Story driven PvE/Multiplayer option.

Edited by Sstaan, 24 April 2014 - 01:54 AM.

[ShinVector]

Yep.. I am hoping 3/3/3/3 would bring back some fairness... But I am already seeing issues with the I want to win at all cost crowd bringing in 2 Assault/ 2 heavy setups... I dunno it might work out... Let see how the people in public test...

OP was talking about carrying matches in light mechs ?
I can be done with lots of risks... Best to use the pug as a distraction while they live...

Edited by ShinVector, 24 April 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Onmyoudo]

Being forced to pilot a medium in this game would kill off new blood incredibly quickly.The real answer is to have a matchmaker that matches on skill properly.

[Karl Streiger]

Onmyoudo, on 24 April 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Being forced to pilot a medium in this game would kill off new blood incredibly quickly.The real answer is to have a matchmaker that matches on skill properly.

nobody is forced to take anything.... you can still take your Assault if you believe its a "I - Win button" and its not. I don't like the 3/3/3/3 - but it increases the role for each player.
If a newbie player makes his first drops in an Assault Mech - you will recognize the lack of fire power - when you needed it most.
I think - it depends on your "self reflection" drop with Mechs you think you are a good shot - and you will win sometimes
(you still don't know about the map nor the enemy but you know yourself)

Drop in a Mech you are not familiar with - prepare to loose

[Kyynele]

There are only a few chassises that are truly so bad that you just can't expect to do reasonably well with them if you bother to learn to play. A good build and full efficiences are however usually required.

It's a bit sad that many new people think that bigger is better, because for example Atlases are incredibly slow huge targets with mostly low weapon hardpoints. Bad pilot in an Atlas is one of the easiest kills in the whole game for any mech class. Yeah, it'll take a bit longer to kill but being useless for a longer time doesn't make one useful.

Once you know the maps and know where to go, faster mechs can be plain deadly, like ShinVector's clip nicely shows.

Funnily, the example used was that Griffins can't compare to Atlases, when Griffins are at the moment easily doing the best of my pile of mechs, averaging W/L and K/D ratios of over 5.0. I'm pretty sure most of my kills are assaults.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 24 April 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

nobody is forced to take anything.... you can still take your Assault if you believe its a "I - Win button" and its not. I don't like the 3/3/3/3 - but it increases the role for each player.
If a newbie player makes his first drops in an Assault Mech - you will recognize the lack of fire power - when you needed it most.
I think - it depends on your "self reflection" drop with Mechs you think you are a good shot - and you will win sometimes
(you still don't know about the map nor the enemy but you know yourself)

Drop in a Mech you are not familiar with - prepare to loose

It Doesn't need to be a I win Button Karl. I have played all the classes, Explored all the Mechs (well exploring the Griffin now), I run a good Centurion, Trebuchet and Jager... But I was waiting for the Battlemaster (which I did not think I would ever get to pilot. I am playing around with everything else, but I am a Battlemaster pilot. Anything else is a if I absolutely positively have no other choice (even then I could just exit game and do something else). I like playing my Battlemaster, I don;t like playing a Jenner. No "I win" involved.

As to how fair a match is... 12 players drop against 12 players. Randomly.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 April 2014 - 03:51 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 April 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

As to how fair a match is... 12 players drop against 12 players. Randomly.

Gone for a month and a half out of state to work....and nothing has changed much.

LRMs have been nerfed back a bit...I was kind of liking them there just before I left. Now...well, at least they're better than they were.

Matchmaker still sucks though. Not that I'm surprised. What with focusing on all the fluff and PR crap...they haven't had time to bother to address it at all. Can't wait for the LM to come out...no way it'll be a half-finished pile of crap...not with PGI's stellar track record. No, not at all.

[Karl Streiger]

Willard Phule, on 24 April 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

Gone for a month and a half out of state to work....and nothing has changed much.

What do you expect?
I was gone for half a year - twice ... and basically its the same game - without the cool functions i loved when i became a founder (you know - knockdown, RnR)

BTW: Mech-Class-Tonnage MatchMaking - we had that before ELO....so what now? Simple take the old code an sell it as a new feature?

[Onmyoudo]

ColdHeat, on 24 April 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

I sometimes wish you would be forced to start with a medium and having to earn your right to drive a heavy or assault.

Karl Streiger, on 24 April 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

nobody is forced to take anything.... you can still take your Assault if you believe its a "I - Win button" and its not.

I was responding to this wish from the OP, and qualifying it with what I believe to be the true issue with the "fairness" of matches. Most new pilots probably buy mediums, I know I did, and realistically that is just a terrible decision when you're learning the game. Light or heavy would probably be better as assaults take some skills to play effectively for the most part, but mediums are just going to get newbies fried.

[Bobzilla]

I find the weight classes pretty balanced, that isn't saying one weight class can just go head on with another and expect it to be a close fight. Two different weight classes will be close fights if they both play to their strenghts and the enemies weakness.

A locust can wear down an atlas taking pot shots from cover or running strikes (lots of other things with a team as well). An atlas wants to corner a locust, or have it out in the open.

Having a concentration of anything in this game throws balance off, be it PPCs, LRMs or assaults. 3/3/3/3 is the anti-boating of the match maker which will make mediums more viable.

[Willard Phule]

Karl Streiger, on 24 April 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

What do you expect?
I was gone for half a year - twice ... and basically its the same game - without the cool functions i loved when i became a founder (you know - knockdown, RnR)

BTW: Mech-Class-Tonnage MatchMaking - we had that before ELO....so what now? Simple take the old code an sell it as a new feature?

I dunno, man, I really don't know.

I'm a big fan of some sort of BV system...one would think it would be simple to implement....but, whatever.

I just wish they'd dump this whole Elo system...it doesn't seem to do squat for those of us in the middle. Base beginners and the midranks are clumped together with virtually no separation.

That and maybe try to get the ecm evened on each team. I dunno. It's still a miserable broken piece of crap.

[Karl Streiger]

Willard Phule, on 24 April 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

I dunno, man, I really don't know.

I'm a big fan of some sort of BV system...one would think it would be simple to implement....but, whatever.

I just wish they'd dump this whole Elo system...it doesn't seem to do squat for those of us in the middle. Base beginners and the midranks are clumped together with virtually no separation.

That and maybe try to get the ecm evened on each team. I dunno. It's still a miserable broken piece of crap.

This ELO doesn't work - its a fact... i droped most of the time since its introduction solo....
I had a really really bad W/L somewhere below 1. I have now a very very bad W/L below 1.

And still i can remember some games where i was forced to drop with known "high elo" players

That means either they are no high level players, my elo is average with a W/L of below 1 or simple the system doesn't work.
Can't tell - but hey at least it doesn't matter - in most games i have fun - some are not so much fun....and someday you see somebody flaming and raging in the chat......and you sit back while watching the timer goes down to zero (your team win- the other team looses)

[Willard Phule]

Seems to me the most basic problem with the MM/Elo system right now is that there is very little separation between the brackets and upward/downward movement is SO FREAKING SLOW.

Get this.....my numbers may be wrong, but they're close.

If you're on the team PREDICTED to lose but you win, your Elo may increase up to 50 points. If you actually win, nothing happens...no movement. If you're on the team PREDICTED to win and actually lose, it may drop up to 50 points. If you actually lose, nothing.

By that statement, it means that the MM is putting together what it thinks will be a "winning" team and a "losing" team. By definition.

Your Elo only moves IF you do something other than predicted. The movement, both up and down, is so slow that there's really nothing below the 2600-2800 mark...the Matchmaker sees to it you don't drop too low.

Elo maxes out at 2800. Once you finish your cadet matches, you start with a 1400. The Matchmaker has a 1400 point spread to find people to fill out matches.

That means that even the top rated players will find themselves stuck in matches with brand new Derps.

If Elo were to change based on win/loss...WITHOUT prediction...you'd see both upward and downward movement happen MUCH quicker...the cream would float to the top, the sludge to the bottom.

It wouldn't do anything for weight/ecm balance but...damn...am I the only one that sees this?

[AlmightyAeng]

ShinVector, on 24 April 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Yep.. I am hoping 3/3/3/3 would bring back some fairness... But I am already seeing issues with the I want to win at all cost crowd bringing in 2 Assault/ 2 heavy setups... I dunno it might work out... Let see how the people in public test...

Would you rather 4 new players be in those 2 assaults, 2 heavies, or experienced "win focused" players? Which do you think will contribute more to your team?

Ironically I'm sure I'll appreciate that when my 4-mans DO ton up at least we'll only have the chance to see a single stalker, banshee, atlas, highlander or victor doing under 100 damage in a match.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 24 April 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[ShinVector]

Ghost Badger, on 24 April 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Would you rather 4 new players be in those 2 assaults, 2 heavies, or experienced "win focused" players? Which do you think will contribute more to your team?

Ironically I'm sure I'll appreciate that when my 4-mans DO ton up at least we'll only have the chance to see a single stalker, banshee, atlas, highlander or victor doing under 100 damage in a match.

Hard to predict what 3/3/3/3 will do to MM.. Supposedly better ELO MM as well ? I dunno... Time will tell... Only time will tell...
At least when I am in a light I don't as same ELO assault is what I am interested at..

[Roadbeer]

FFS people.
It's war
When is war supposed to be fair?

3/3/3/3 makes the game horrifically boring.

"Hey, lets bring 3 infantry divisions, 3 tanks, 3 pieces of artillery and 3 aircraft." Said no army to another, EVER.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadbeer, on 24 April 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

FFS people.
It's war
When is war supposed to be fair?

3/3/3/3 makes the game horrifically boring.

"Hey, lets bring 3 infantry divisions, 3 tanks, 3 pieces of artillery and 3 aircraft." Said no REAL army to another, EVER.

Jade Falcon, Wolf, Ghost Bear armies do though!

Ducks for cover.

[TygerLily]

3/3/3/3 will make the overall tonnage on the field go down...that's a good! Forcing mediums on the field is good to (it's not really forcing if a pug was dropping in one anyway...it just restructures the groups so they fill a slot) and most likely the premade groups will occupy the 3 Assaults, 1 heavy position.

3/3/3/3 is the magic number for the the system to allow everyone to play what they want with the minimum amount of denial. IE, the only person being pressured to play something other than what they want is the fourth man on a 4-man premade. Everyone one else can drop what they want...solo Assault, solo light, 3-man Assaults, 2-man Heavies, etc...

Edited by TygerLily, 24 April 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[ShinVector]

Roadbeer, on 24 April 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

FFS people.
It's war
When is war supposed to be fair?

3/3/3/3 makes the game horrifically boring.

"Hey, lets bring 3 infantry divisions, 3 tanks, 3 pieces of artillery and 3 aircraft." Said no army to another, EVER.

I think in the past people we having pug stomping fun it was just weight match making not ELO matchmaking too.
I would argue MWO was more popular then..