73 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Tastian, on 24 April 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

ECM should counter Artemis, BAP, C3 and Narc. It should not stop regular LRMs or Streaks from targeting. Nor should it prevent information gathering or targeting. It sounds like a pretty minor component at that point .... as it should be.

You have stumbled upon the core of the ECM debate here.

When ECM was first added it was the be all end all of E-war and info warfare.The reason was simple,no other support electronics were finished.

We had a NARC system that was so bad it was almost never used.

We had BAPs that were not actually active probes but a slight boost to sensors and also almost never used by the player base.

Artemis was in it's infantcy and under developed/tested.

Command consoles were then and still now paper weights that do nothing.

So at the time of release if an ECM only acted to counter other support electronics it would have also been a seldom used option.Who would spend the tonnage to fit a counter measure for items nearly no one was using.

And that is what went wrong.ECM was developed isolated from it's purpose because it's purpose wasn't fully realized.

If instead E-war was developed together with purpose and function fully realized an ECM that only countered a handful of support electronics would be valued because the fully developed support electronics would have had value.

Imagine how important an ECM would be if BAP could detect enemy mechs in a forward arc even if those targets were obscured behind cover.

Imagine a Command console that allowed a lance/company commander to mark targets as priority or call in artillery strikes.

Imagine a NARC beacon that transmitted a target's location to all units within 800m with or without LOS.

These would be potent advantages worthy of countering with ECM and thus ECM would be valued.

Instead we got an ECM so over featured that it was the best AMS best Sensor upgrade best IFF jammer and best Info warfare tool ever devised and nearly all of the other support electronics to serve as half baked "counter measures" for ECM rather than see them fully realized within their own functions.

ECM needs to be taken back to the drawing board along with NARC,BAP,TAG,Artemis and Command Consoles so that all these components are important parts of E-war and information warfare.

It's bad design to place such emphysis upon one component (ECM) and pigeon hole everything else to serve as ECM counters.

[Lyoto Machida]

Fierostetz, on 24 April 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Or you carry a TAG, or a NARC, or run with a lance that does the aforementioned.

Lol...I do carry my own TAG on my LRM boats. But when we roll "serious" 12 mans, LRMs are generally on the "do not bring" list (just like Awesomes, flamers, hill climb modules, etc). Losing multiple 12 mans in a row brings down unit morale, so people leave the other stuff for random, fun drops.

Assuming equal pilots, 12 poptarts/ECM mechs should absolutely destroy 12 LRM/LRM support mechs most of the time.

Not to say you wouldn't see LRM heavy teams in the 12 man queue but they're rare and they'll generally get run over by good direct fire teams.

Or put it this way...on most maps we currently have right now...who would win 1 vs 1 with equal pilots? The VTR-9B poptart or the BLR-1S LRM boat? The CTF-3D poptart or the ON1-V LRM boat? The SHD whatever poptart or the KTO-18 LRM boat?

If you think that LRMs are equal to direct fire in most situations, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Even in that tourney that was held with the LRM patch, I'm pretty sure more of the top scores were direct fire instead of LRMs.

[Clit Beastwood]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 April 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

Lol...I do carry my own TAG on my LRM boats. But when we roll "serious" 12 mans, LRMs are generally on the "do not bring" list (just like Awesomes, flamers, hill climb modules, etc). Losing multiple 12 mans in a row brings down unit morale, so people leave the other stuff for random, fun drops.

Assuming equal pilots, 12 poptarts/ECM mechs should absolutely destroy 12 LRM/LRM support mechs most of the time.

Not to say you wouldn't see LRM heavy teams in the 12 man queue but they're rare and they'll generally get run over by good direct fire teams.

Or put it this way...on most maps we currently have right now...who would win 1 vs 1 with equal pilots? The VTR-9B poptart or the BLR-1S LRM boat? The CTF-3D poptart or the ON1-V LRM boat? The SHD whatever poptart or the KTO-18 LRM boat?

If you think that LRMs are equal to direct fire in most situations, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Even in that tourney that was held with the LRM patch, I'm pretty sure more of the top scores were direct fire instead of LRMs.

Well of course - LRMS are a support weapon, and in 12's it's not worth the tonnage. We're talking "long range" missiles that are slow, and only go 1000m. That's not very long range We had good luck in 12's simply briging 2 DDC's with missiles. All they really did was keep the poptarts where we wanted them while I tagged and artied them, giving my guys enough time to move in. Combat is a dance, and each step is important.

[Daekar]

Fierostetz, on 26 April 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

Well of course - LRMS are a support weapon, and in 12's it's not worth the tonnage. We're talking "long range" missiles that are slow, and only go 1000m. That's not very long range We had good luck in 12's simply briging 2 DDC's with missiles. All they really did was keep the poptarts where we wanted them while I tagged and artied them, giving my guys enough time to move in. Combat is a dance, and each step is important.

This is precisely the problem. In an IP where a SIGNIFICANT chunk of mechs rely on LRMs for long range firepower, in MWO you can't. They're not real weapons, they're support weapons. This renders mediums and without long range capability and makes a large number of chassis variants simply not worth taking at all.

How you can style that out and not realize exactly the problem is beyond me. LRMs are not supposed to be crap and unreliable, they are supposed to be consistent, reliable long range damage. ECM as currently implemented is one of a host of poor design decisions relating to missiles that make them undesirable and make missile chassis second-class.

[Clit Beastwood]

If you're pugging in an LRM boat, use one of your missile hardpoints for NARC and take a tag. This isn't hard, people. If you're running with a lance while LRMing and nobody's running support equipment for you, the problem isn't ECM or LRMS, it's a lance that isn't supporting you. Everything is a balance, and ECM discourages boating. Give up one of those lrm5's, etc. and take a GD narc.

[Daekar]

Fierostetz, on 26 April 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

If you're pugging in an LRM boat, use one of your missile hardpoints for NARC and take a tag. This isn't hard, people. If you're running with a lance while LRMing and nobody's running support equipment for you, the problem isn't ECM or LRMS, it's a lance that isn't supporting you. Everything is a balance, and ECM discourages boating. Give up one of those lrm5's, etc. and take a GD narc.

Why one earth would I want to do that when I can just take direct-fire weapons and forget about it? Besides, NARC is blocked by ECM.

Edited by Daekar, 26 April 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[Hillslam]

ECM is fine. Mount something other than LRMs and Streaks.

[Prezimonto]

Hawks, on 24 April 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

I personally think the easiest and best fix would be to simply allow ECM to be fitted to any chassis. I have seen literally no good reason ever given as to why this should not be the case.

If we did this you'd never see LRM or Streak missiles again.

Hillslam, on 26 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

ECM is fine. Mount something other than LRMs and Streaks.

ECM is fine, just ignore how it can completely break 2 whole weapons systems in the game.

Edited by Prezimonto, 26 April 2014 - 07:41 AM.

[poopenshire]

Prezimonto, on 26 April 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

ECM is fine, just ignore how it can completely break 2 whole weapons systems in the game.

I was just in a match against ECM. Guess what, I had missiles and I HIT THE TARGET!

I guess those systems are not as broke as you say.

[Prezimonto]

poopenshire, on 26 April 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

I was just in a match against ECM. Guess what, I had missiles and I HIT THE TARGET!

I guess those systems are not as broke as you say.

Until you're in a match where your team doesn't bring TAG/NARC. Or you're in a streak boat and facing 2 ECM mechs.

Also, it's not that you can't do SOME damage. It's that the tonnage investment to be able to do anything meaningful in these cases is huge. Between launchers and ammo, you have to dedicate the bulk of your weapons tonnage to LRM's if you wish to have a real impact in the game... and then you can still be shut down completely where no action on your own part can help.

It's honestly not fun. It's honestly broken.

Anyone that says ECM is fine: just don't take LRM's or streaks is 100% admitting that those weapon systems are broken by ECM.

[Astrocanis]

Yeshua Kerensky, on 24 April 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

I know that ECM needs a total rework, but could we just get a temp. Fix for now?

Don't get me wrong I think they need to rethink ECM needs a total overhaul. Bur for now can we just get ECM to not stack? Completely shutting down a weapon system by having 2 ECMs is a little over powered. I don't mind that BAP can negate one ECM but cat do crap with two. Just a thought, but I figured that would be an easier fix for now than redesigning the entre system.

I'm going to get flamed...I think ECM is fine the way it is.

Most of the "fixes" I've seen promoted in this and other threads about LRMs, ballistics, ECM, BAP, lasers, ghost heat feel like the game should be reduced to rock'em sock'em robots in a bowl with no cover and may the first firer win.

The way the game is now, people have to choose between nastiness. And those limitations are what make the game fun.

Of course, now the flames can begin.

[edit] To the poster above. I repeat, I think ECM is fine. If you build a nothing-but-lrm boat, you are going to have to deal with the limitations of your choices. If you are an LRM spammer (I was, but learned not to) you are going to be bingo with no damage and kills. If you ONLY have missiles and the other team has ECM (less the case than most would let on - particularly ECM players with a clue) then you get what you pay for. If all you have is AC40 and an XL engine on a map that lends itself to sniping or lurming, you are going to get destroyed. But YOU MADE THAT CHOICE.

Edited by Astrocanis, 26 April 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[Vimpyr]

Ok. I’ll play devil’s advocate (and get flamed in the process, I’m sure).

I don’t necessarily think it is ECM being the problem, per se. I think a larger problem is people that boat LRM’s as their ONLY weapon. I have dropped with players that state they have over 2,000 LRM’s and to “get locks please”. 2,000? Do you have any other weapons on your mech at all? Did you bring a TAG to help yourself out and get your own locks?

That’s fine if you want to load up on missiles, but don’t complain when you have painted yourself into a corner with only one weapon and find that it may not be optimal for every game you are in. I have seen plenty of games where people are absolutely pummeled to death by LRM’s (myself included). ECM is not that OP in every single game. Does it help, sure. Does it “break the game”, not in my opinion. Many times I am the only one carrying ECM in my 12 man group. ECM is not a rampant problem as not every mech chassis carries one. Furthermore, experienced players will go out of their way to kill ECM mechs first, just to remove that defensive bonus from the other team.

For full disclosure, I PUG exclusively and drive an Atlas DDC. I recently took the time to master it and I can tell you it was a real hair pulling experience to level up the RS and D variants due to no ECM. I was frequently LRM’ed to death. And before you scream, “noob, learn how to play, take cover, etc.” I know how to play, take cover etc. At some point you have to leave cover to do something and in quite a few games that meant eating endless waves of LRM’s. All the armor in the world won’t stop 100 LRM salvo’s slamming into your mech and “racing” (and I use the word loosely here) at 50-60 kmph to the next batch of cover is not going to cut it. While you may have an ear-to-ear grin mashing the fire button releasing salvo after salvo, unseen from 800 meters away, being on the receiving end of massive LRMs until you explode is definitely “not fun” either.

Everyone should load out their mech as they see fit, however, weapon balancing would go a long way to help alleviate the problem. I used to be a short range specialist only – medium lasers were my longest range weapon. I found myself being frequently useless on several maps given the sometimes large engagement ranges (Alpine, Tourmaline, Canyons, etc.). I adapted my gameplay and changed my weapon load out to include 2 ER large lasers and now have a more balanced long range, medium range, close range load out that is more fun to play and makes me a more useful team member.

Just something to think about before screaming “Nerf ECM’s. I can’t LRM people to death with impunity”.

My 2 mech credits, for what it’s worth.

Now, commence flaming in 5… 4… 3… 2… 1….

[Lyoto Machida]

People who have feast or famine results with LRMs in PUGs are using them wrong (ie: from 900m away). The best way to use LRMs is direct fire, up close (250m-400m) with Artemis and TAG. The name "LRM" is a misnomer, really.

Fierostetz, on 26 April 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

If you're pugging in an LRM boat, use one of your missile hardpoints for NARC and take a tag. This isn't hard, people. If you're running with a lance while LRMing and nobody's running support equipment for you, the problem isn't ECM or LRMS, it's a lance that isn't supporting you. Everything is a balance, and ECM discourages boating. Give up one of those lrm5's, etc. and take a GD narc.

I don't have problems in PUGs (and definitely not in 4 mans)...I smash them quite frequently with LRMs. It's the 12 mans where they disappear...which is fine, because I just switch to poptarting instead. It's nice to have options, I suppose.

[Prezimonto]

Astrocanis, on 26 April 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

[edit] To the poster above. I repeat, I think ECM is fine. If you build a nothing-but-lrm boat, you are going to have to deal with the limitations of your choices. If you are an LRM spammer (I was, but learned not to) you are going to be bingo with no damage and kills. If you ONLY have missiles and the other team has ECM (less the case than most would let on - particularly ECM players with a clue) then you get what you pay for. If all you have is AC40 and an XL engine on a map that lends itself to sniping or lurming, you are going to get destroyed. But YOU MADE THAT CHOICE.

So why is it okay that ANY other weapon system doesn't have that limitation? Why shouldn't a player with a mixed loadout of direct fire weapons have an equally difficult time even FIRING a weapon when brought inside a 2x ECM field.

Look at mechs like the Oxide and the Catapult A1. The game designers have made choices themselves that strongly suggest that they expect players to be able to play and have FUN with all missile builds. Our choices for those systems for the last year have been:
1) LRMs: broken by ECM
2) streaks: even more broken by multiple ECM
3) SRM's: which have hit like wet noodles since the explosion damage faux pas over a year ago.

We're getting fixing for SRM's soon, but you're still essentially telling me that I the designers intend missile boats to just suck in many matches.

Vimpyr, on 26 April 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Ok. I’ll play devil’s advocate (and get flamed in the process, I’m sure).

I don’t necessarily think it is ECM being the problem, per se. I think a larger problem is people that boat LRM’s as their ONLY weapon. I have dropped with players that state they have over 2,000 LRM’s and to “get locks please”. 2,000? Do you have any other weapons on your mech at all? Did you bring a TAG to help yourself out and get your own locks?

Okay. I easily run through 1200 missile a match in a 2x LRM15 catapult backed by tag and 3medium lasers. barring the ammo amount, and the engine, this is pretty close to a stock mech configuration in the game. This mech is even viable these days with the LRM buffs recently.

But for an assault mech with 4xLRM15's 2000 ammo backed by medium lasers is a completely viable build.

Let's add that if you have to TAG for yourself, you're already in a bad position as an LRM boat, as you will lose to any direct fired mech with a decent pilot.


Last point: what would happen if ALL mechs got a cone of fire if they didn't have full target information? As in, to obtain perfect convergence on a target for all weapons you had to hit "r" and wait the 3 to 4 seconds for targeting information. Until then your weapons hit in a cone around the center point. This is a very minor change to how we play the game, and ECM would be instantly be percieved as wildly, completely, awfully, broken. So why is it okay that it can happen to LRM's? And why is it okay that SSRM's CANT BE USED AT ALL if countered by ECM.

1.5 tons of equipment can shut down 10's of tons of weapons, for no risk, no skill, and no work. That's wonderful balance.


____________________

edit:

I'm also NOT arguing that LRM's don't need a nerf if ECM is changed. LRM's will need balancing, but the do anyway for many other reasons.

Edited by Prezimonto, 26 April 2014 - 12:51 PM.