86 replies to this topic

[Odins Fist]

Trauglodyte, on 25 April 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

NGNG is probably the worst thing to happen to this game. Do we, the community, really need these two speaking for us by saying that Ghost Heat and other issues are "ok"?

They definitely don't speak for the community as a whole. That's been evident from the very begining.

I don't think anyone could do that, there are so many different OPINIONS.

[Daekar]

Rebas Kradd, on 25 April 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Because Paul didn't say "Full Community Warfare and hardpoint size restrictions are coming out tomorrow."

What I got out of this, with my perspective unsullied by Paul-hate, and supplemented by Karl Berg's thoughts over the last week, is this:

* CW delays were due simply to inexperience, the studio discovering itself and its process, and the need to rewrite vast portions of the game after rushing to create a Closed Beta build in six months (at IGP's mandate). Each time the chance came up, something else reared its head.

* PGI has nothing to do with the bad marketing decisions. Roll your eyes all you want, but if you want to claim this is a lie, you'd better be able to prove it.

* It's because of Paul and PGI that 3PV was implemented in a balanced manner.

* As long as PGI is small, their pipeline will be narrow and we just have to accept it.

* Clan weaponry is being carefully developed to offer variety and avoid redundancy with IS weaponry.

This is what I got out of it too. I might have made an actual noise of excitement when I heard Clan UACs were going to be burst-fire.

Those trashing Clan Tech as it's presented have never considered the absolute brutality that will be unleashed from a lance of Clan mechs with UAC/10s and UAC/20s fitted. Even with burst fire, things are going to frickin melt.

The only thing I heard that disappointed me was that CW was only at the tail end of the design phase. I accept that they have a small team, but I still dislike waiting for that core feature.

We give Paul a lot of crap, but I'm starting to believe that this game would totally suck and be nothing like BattleTech if he weren't around. I may not agree with everything he does, but he has his priorities in the right place. You go, Paul.

[Odins Fist]

Daekar, on 25 April 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

"I still dislike waiting for that core feature."

The waiting part is what's making everyone unhappy with MWO..

Waiting can be applied to almost every aspect of it's development.

[Adiuvo]

Trauglodyte, on 25 April 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I kind of feel bad for Paul. He does take the brunt of all of the hate. But, he/they have to go through all of the crap here on the boards to try to figure out what is going on, on top of using internal metrics which are probably being pulled by someone that isn't correctly schooled in statistical analysis (not his fault, really), only to end up listening to a couple of idiot hacks on a podcast. I'm telling you, NGNG is probably the worst thing to happen to this game. Do we, the community, really need these two morons speaking for us by saying that Ghost Heat and other issues are "ok"?

I think you're overestimating the dislike for ghost heat.

[Damocles69]

Odins Fist, on 25 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

They definitely don't speak for the community as a whole. That's been evident from the very begining.

I don't think anyone could do that, there are so many different OPINIONS.

voice of the community.... that is on the payroll of the publisher. yay that isn't a conflict of interests at all.
The majority of NGNG is a complete joke. Phil the Shill and Bombashill are god awful. However, Jagger and Cattra actually make great points and are worth the listen

[Fut]

Trauglodyte, on 25 April 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I kind of feel bad for Paul. He does take the brunt of all of the hate. But, he/they have to go through all of the crap here on the boards to try to figure out what is going on, on top of using internal metrics which are probably being pulled by someone that isn't correctly schooled in statistical analysis (not his fault, really), only to end up listening to a couple of idiot hacks on a podcast. I'm telling you, NGNG is probably the worst thing to happen to this game. Do we, the community, really need these two morons speaking for us by saying that Ghost Heat and other issues are "ok"?

Never considered this before.
You're probably right about this.

Adiuvo, on 25 April 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

I think you're overestimating the dislike for ghost heat.

Well, it's certainly not stopping people from playing, but does that mean that it's "ok"?

Edited by Fut, 25 April 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Praehotec8]

I don't know about SRMs being overpowered following the fix. Unless my hit detection is really bad, even with a boatload of SRM-4s, they just aren't worth loading up a bunch to use as a main avenue of attack. They still feel really weak, and are heavy, hot, and short-range enough to make using other weapons much more attractive.

I actually miss the splatcat, as mechs like that could be useful in giving the long-range sniping/jumping meta reason to consider doing something else...

[Strum Wealh]

Though, the recent announcement that the Clan LB-X ACs are intended to receive the ability to switch munition types would hopefully trickle back to the standard (non-Streak) launchers of both tech bases, such that LRM & SRM launchers might eventually get access to alternate guidance systems like Heat-Seeking Warheads (implemented as locking onto the hottest target near the aim point if fired without a missile lock), Listen-Kill Missiles (implemented as an anti-radiation missile that locks onto Beagle & ECM carriers near the aim point if fired without a missile lock), and Follow-the-Leader Warheads (implemented as having weaker tracking strength but tighter spread than normal LRMs)... along with alternate damage effects, like AX Warheads (implemented as bonus damage vs FF Armor), Inferno missiles (implemented as adding heat to the target on impact), and Magnetic-Pulse Warheads (implemented as disrupting a target's sensors on impact, producing an ECM-like effect)...?

[Trauglodyte]

I don't completely hate Ghost Heat. I just think it was done in a sloppy way and, what's worse, is that they haven't updated the GH values since they changed the heat on PPCs/ER PPCs or the AC2 now. And, you can get around GH with missiles by mixing up the launchers that you use. They can tidy it up a bit and I think it would be fine, to a point. But, they just need to put in the time which, as Paul said, is being devoted to other things. And that, my friends, is why I kind of feel bad for them. Having worked for a small Advertising firm years and years ago, the demands of the customers sometimes gets out of control when you're dealing with a work staff of 10-12. You've got what you can do and what people want you to deliver. Given that PGI is relatively new, they over promising when they didn't expect the project to be as staggering as it is makes me a little sympathetic. Add in the issues related to their code vs. CE3 and the choke points (anyone that codes knows that this happens more than you'd like it to) and you've got us steaming on the boards grinding our teeth wanting to know why we don't have <insert here> when they don't even have the personnel to get the base stuff out.

The thing about GH, at least in my opinion, is that it constantly needs to be addressed to move with the trends of the game. If the point is to keep high alphas, boating, etc in check, it needs to be fluid.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 25 April 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[InRev]

So, I had an idea: they don't want to give IS LBXs slugs out of fear of invalidating the AC/10. So what if they gave IS LBXs burst-fire when not shooting cluster? At least they wouldn't be utterly useless and the AC/10 would still have a niche (poinpoint FLD vs burst)

[Deathlike]

Praehotec8, on 25 April 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

I don't know about SRMs being overpowered following the fix. Unless my hit detection is really bad, even with a boatload of SRM-4s, they just aren't worth loading up a bunch to use as a main avenue of attack. They still feel really weak, and are heavy, hot, and short-range enough to make using other weapons much more attractive.

I actually miss the splatcat, as mechs like that could be useful in giving the long-range sniping/jumping meta reason to consider doing something else...

You need to use Artemis. It speaks volumes to how much better it is than non-Artemis SRMs are TBH (plus the state of SRM hitreg).

Artemis is the difference between "lol damage" and "LOL damage".

Adiuvo, on 25 April 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

I think you're overestimating underestimating the extraordinary dislike for ghost heat.

Fixed for you.

Trauglodyte, on 25 April 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

I don't completely hate Ghost Heat. I just think it was done in a sloppy way and, what's worse, is that they haven't updated the GH values since they changed the heat on PPCs/ER PPCs or the AC2 now. And, you can get around GH with missiles by mixing up the launchers that you use. They can tidy it up a bit and I think it would be fine, to a point. But, they just need to put in the time which, as Paul said, is being devoted to other things. And that, my friends, is why I kind of feel bad for them. Having worked for a small Advertising firm years and years ago, the demands of the customers sometimes gets out of control when you're dealing with a work staff of 10-12. You've got what you can do and what people want you to deliver. Given that PGI is relatively new, they over promising when they didn't expect the project to be as staggering as it is makes me a little sympathetic. Add in the issues related to their code vs. CE3 and the choke points (anyone that codes knows that this happens more than you'd like it to) and you've got us steaming on the boards grinding our teeth wanting to know why we don't have <insert here> when they don't even have the personnel to get the base stuff out.

All I will say is..

"Aggressive balancing before launch" with respect to the LPL... is what turned me WAY OFF to what Paul says.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 April 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Odins Fist]

Damocles69, on 25 April 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

voice of the community.... that is on the payroll of the publisher.

Is that a factual statement.. I'm asking because I never looked into that.

[Peiper]

Odins Fist, on 25 April 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Yeah if they Bungle Clan Tech into being a joke across the board, then MWO is sunk.

Also the flip flop from doing CW, then to Clans, then back to CW is kind of expected.
WHY YOU ASK..?? Because you can't have CW without the Clans, (you could, but it would be awful garbage)

If Clan Tech ends up being a convoluted mess that is implemented badly, then MWO is sunk.

The clock is ticking even louder now, and they know it.

I disagree with your statement "If clan tech ends up..." We will have private lobbies, and if clan tech is messed up for awhile, we have the choice to play without it. Community Warfare will make or break the game. I completely disagree with the foundations of how weapons are being balanced in the game, BUT, they are far more balanced, and more mechs are far more useful in this version of mechwarrior than any previous version. With all their experience, I think PGI will probably do alright with clan tech. Yeah, there are going to be teething problems, and balance issues. Get that in your head right now and accept that. However, after those are over, and clan tech is balanced out, it won't matter nearly as much as if the give us a comprehensive, deep/immersive, mission oriented planetary capture with a sandbox inner sphere where our houses, clans and merc corps CAN make a real difference.

Mister Blastman, on 25 April 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Well the sad thing is I actually looked forward to House vs. House vs. Pirate combat. It would have been pretty neat. It isn't meant to be, though.

I too think we should have a year of succession wars, where we can really alter the map, you know, have a chance to knock out a capital or two. They can reset the inner sphere from time to time, but they gotta give us the freedom to play out all our fantasy 'what if' scenarios. We've already played team death matches for FAR too long, and if planetary capture is merely just a bunch more random team death matches there will be problems for the survival of this game. Most of the people who play this game are adults and many are Battletech fans. We want MORE than endless death matches. We want depth of story, meaning, purpose, and the ability to measure our success in gained or lost territory. I keep saying this in hopes PGI is listening: If the borders are more or less static. If we're thrown into buckets with competing or hated houses/clans and expected to fight for the same side, then people are going to be seriously pissed off. My Devil Dogs are loyal to House Steiner. If we're sent to a planet to take it over in the name of the GIANT INNER SPHERE BUCKET faction and I find that I'm fighting side by side with Capellans or Blakists for a Clan Ghost Bear held planet, I want the ability to talk to the Ghost Bears and join them to kill the Liao and cultist scum. Then I'll fight the honorable fight with the Ghost Bears. If PGI makes me fight with my enemies against honorable opponents, I'll be tempted to throw the fight just to stick it to the manipulators in the electronic haze that are wrecking my sense of roleplaying justice!

[Odins Fist]

Peiper, on 25 April 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I disagree with your statement "If clan tech ends up..."

You can disagree all you want, that is your right, but if they Bungle an entire section of what MWO is supposed to be about, then everyone can expect very bad things for MWO.
I don't think anyone that has been involved with MWO would be naive enough to believe that if Clan Tech gets bungled, a whole section of the game gets implemented so badly, that it will mean nothing to the player base.

That's the reality of the situation.
And all of the delays in development are not helping, we have seen it before.

[Igorius]

Thanks for the summary. Much appreciated, friend.

Now to read it over.

...

...

...

Well, goodness. That was, well, different.

I guess my whole thoughts on it can be fairly easily summed up with a paraphrase of an old chestnut:
"I used to be a MechWarrior, but then I took a position change to the knee."

[Odins Fist]

Peiper, on 25 April 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I too think we should have a year of succession wars, where we can really alter the map, you know, have a chance to knock out a capital or two.

They have already stated a long, long, long time ago that the map of the inner sphere will NOT change like that.
No houses will be knocked out by another house or Clan, etc, etc, etc....

That was something I brought up a long time ago in closed beta. My thought was, "then why bother with CW"?
The reason being is this, if they can't allow for one faction or another to make gains against another, or the whole inner sphere being in complete and utter chaos and change, then what's the point..??

Couldn't they do a reset after a certain length of time, say 6 months.? Oh, but then the timeline wouldn't move forward past a certain length.. Facepalm.

Oh but wait a minute, the abandoned their own Timeline for the MWO uiverse when development could not keep up with it.
I mean if they had stuck to their original Timeline we would have already went through many waves of operation revival at this point.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Invasion <---- THIS... Wave 4 started July 3050.. Original Timeline put that in July 2013

I get unhappy with these things just like a lot of people.. I'm surprised I still give MWO a chance to get finished, but I do.

[Peiper]

Odins Fist, on 25 April 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

They have already stated a long, long, long time ago that the map of the inner sphere will NOT change like that.
No houses will be knocked out by another house or Clan, etc, etc, etc....

That was something I brought up a long time ago in closed beta. My thought was, "then why bother with CW"?
The reason being is this, if they can't allow for one faction or another to make gains against another, or the whole inner sphere being in complete and utter chaos and change, then what's the point..??

Couldn't they do a reset after a certain length of time, say 6 months.? Oh, but then the timeline wouldn't move forward past a certain length.. Facepalm.

I agree with what I quoted above. What is the point of community warfare if we can't change the history? And as far as sticking to a timeline, that would be cool, but at some point you gotta let the players decide - through their battles, teams, and politics - how things will turn out. I do think that playing through the clan invasion would be really cool. However, the clans should have a chance to take earth, and the inner sphere should have a chance to stop before they escape the periphery. This is the essence of strategic warfare, which is really what community warfare is all about (as opposed to tactical warfare, which is what we have now). We're fighting a bunch of unconnected battles against random opponents. The strategic layer is the one that makes those battle mean something, make them worth fighting, and change the fate of the inner sphere.

How many people play Total War as the Danish and just stay in Denmark. How many people play Hearts of Iron and move the German troops to the gates of Moscow and just stop there, because that's what happened in reality? How many Smoke Jaguar players would like to have the chance to see what would happen if they DIDN'T pound Turtle Bay into dust?

PGI could use various years in Battletech history as starting points, but let us play out what happens next. If one faction dominated, they could take a snapshot for their trophy racks and reset the world. But PGI's gotta give us a chance. Other than the E-sport/tournament and casual crowd, THIS is what we've been building up our skills, our teams and our banks for. We're preparing for community warfare.

[Deathlike]

Odins Fist, on 25 April 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Is that a factual statement.. I'm asking because I never looked into that.

AFAIK, the top two people (Sean Lang and Bombadil) are being paid by IGP for this. The rest of NGNG are not.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 April 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

+1 to Peiper, rofl to the thread title.

The content of the Vlog is meh in terms of the time those of us have been around since CB and suppose everyone will be suffering from impatience BUT.....

I can FULLY understand that development of ANYTHING takes time and as such I am being ultra patient. At the end of the day I couldn't programme / refine this game so I will wait and enjoy it as much as I can until the full game makes an appearance.

I love stompy robots and will / have done all I can to support the further development of his title and hopefully the future will be bright.


Roll on Community Warfare, Zulu-6 will see all the Clanners on the battlefield

[Adiuvo]

Deathlike, on 25 April 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

AFAIK, the top two people (Sean Lang and Bombadil) are being paid by IGP for this. The rest of NGNG are not.

They don't get paid for podcasts directly, they get paid for specific promotional materials that they put out that are created through contract. Such as the tutorial videos.