232 replies to this topic

[Davers]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

FLD?

Front Loaded Damage. Anything that delivers it's full damage at once, as opposed to Damage Over Time (lasers).

[Kharax]

So any news about a new map comming nearby, is that new map comming this month?

The new Forum structure is absolute horroble because everything important is going under in that mass of uninteresting posts.

[fandre]

IMO, new maps would be nice but it would be totaly ok if we could get some map variations, e.g.: Day/Night/Dawn/Storm/Blizzard/Sandstorm/Firestorm/EM-Storm/Flood/Earthquake... Variations should have effects to mechs.

Edited by fandre, 12 May 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Mavairo]

I too have to wonder how it costs $250,000 dollars to build a map. Especially when MWO LL uses the same game engine, and has far better detailed maps. (doesn't LL also have destructible environments?)
You can't honestly tell me that building a map, costs as much as a Ferrari. Especially since ALL Of the maps in this game are pretty woeful compared to the maps you find in Halo. (not even 2,3,4 and upcoming 5... The First one)

Maybe they are paying for each map maker's Ferrari in part.

To further put that $ into perspective, one of the SRT 10 Vipers in ALMS caught fire. It burned the car almost completely to the ground and did $400,000 dollars worth of damage. That means, for the cost of Canyon, and say HPG Manifold, you could have built a Top Tier, world stage competing full carbon fiber, titanium, aluminum and magnesium, Race Car and had 100,000 to spare.

So you want to tell us again how it costs 250k to design a completely virtual product that an entire community designed for Free in off time?

Maps which are so littered with invisible walls, and terrain that magically gets you Stuck, that you'd swear this was a bad console game from 1998? This is what we're paying for? What PGI is paying for?

Edited by Mavairo, 12 May 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Mavairo, on 12 May 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

I too have to wonder how it costs $250,000 dollars to build a map. Especially when MWO LL uses the same game engine, and has far better detailed maps. (doesn't LL also have destructible environments?)
You can't honestly tell me that building a map, costs as much as a Ferrari. Especially since ALL Of the maps in this game are pretty woeful compared to the maps you find in Halo. (not even 2,3,4 and upcoming 5... The First one)

Maybe they are paying for each map maker's Ferrari in part.

To further put that $ into perspective, one of the SRT 10 Vipers in ALMS caught fire. It burned the car almost completely to the ground and did $400,000 dollars worth of damage. That means, for the cost of Canyon, and say HPG Manifold, you could have built a Top Tier, world stage competing full carbon fiber, titanium, aluminum and magnesium, Race Car and had 100,000 to spare.

So you want to tell us again how it costs 250k to design a completely virtual product that an entire community designed for Free in off time?

Maps which are so littered with invisible walls, and terrain that magically gets you Stuck, that you'd swear this was a bad console game from 1998? This is what we're paying for? What PGI is paying for?

We've already discussed this a couple of times now. PGI will not release that information, because common sense dictates they shouldn't.


Developing anything in the business world is far more complicated and costlier than what happens in a mostly mod-based community. I believe someone here even made a hypothetical expense report, and it was quite reasonable.

The bigger chunk of the cost is probably (if I had to guess) in developing new assets. You see, creating Alpine Peaks after Frozen city didn't cost as much. Even though alpine peaks is significantly larger. Because many of the assets used to build it (mostly doodads) were created during the development of Frozen city. That's an example. Now on the other hand, the new swamp or forest map (I think forest) will cost a lot more than the other urban map being created alongside it. Since it will use resources non-existent in the other maps.

[KingCobra]

(Stop releasing stupid colors and mechs and start doing new maps.

More important than maps are the bugs and bad performance the game has, but if you didn't fix this yet, it won't get fixed i guess.

But for the god's sake, is not that hard to make a map, and if you don't have ideas, then release an event to ask people to send you ideas for maps, or even drawings of maps.

It's getting very boring always the same damn maps. )
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I totally agree not enough maps but just as big a issue is there lack of attention to better map rotation in the matchmaker. You might play a variety of maps 2-3 then get 1 map 5 times in a row before a new cycle of 2-3 different maps begins again. It should be 5-10 different maps in a rotation then the map cycle starts again. Plus new maps would make the game seam somewhat fresh again.

Edited by KingCobra, 12 May 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[Archon]

IraqiWalker, on 12 May 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

We've already discussed this a couple of times now. PGI will not release that information, because common sense dictates they shouldn't.


Developing anything in the business world is far more complicated and costlier than what happens in a mostly mod-based community. I believe someone here even made a hypothetical expense report, and it was quite reasonable.

The bigger chunk of the cost is probably (if I had to guess) in developing new assets. You see, creating Alpine Peaks after Frozen city didn't cost as much. Even though alpine peaks is significantly larger. Because many of the assets used to build it (mostly doodads) were created during the development of Frozen city. That's an example. Now on the other hand, the new swamp or forest map (I think forest) will cost a lot more than the other urban map being created alongside it. Since it will use resources non-existent in the other maps.

I get that, but why not use doodads that already exist? I'd be fine with having say 5 different forest maps, 5 different snow maps and 5 different urban maps all using the same doodads but with totally different layouts. Is it that hard to do this with a map editor?

[IraqiWalker]

KingCobra, on 12 May 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

(Stop releasing stupid colors and mechs and start doing new maps.

More important than maps are the bugs and bad performance the game has, but if you didn't fix this yet, it won't get fixed i guess.

But for the god's sake, is not that hard to make a map, and if you don't have ideas, then release an event to ask people to send you ideas for maps, or even drawings of maps.

It's getting very boring always the same damn maps. )
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I totally agree not enough maps but just as big a issue is there lack of attention to better map rotation in the matchmaker. You might play a variety of maps 2-3 then get 1 map 5 times in a row before a new cycle of 2-3 different maps begins again. It should be 5-10 different maps in a rotation then the map cycle starts again. Plus new maps would make the game seam somewhat fresh again.

If you had read through this thread, or even checked the last post I made, you would've seen that they already announced two maps on the way.

Also, making maps isn't as easy as you think it is. That has been also discussed through about 3 or 4 pages of this thread. There's a difference between building a map, and actually making one that is viable for the game.

[Mavairo]

IraqiWalker, on 12 May 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

We've already discussed this a couple of times now. PGI will not release that information, because common sense dictates they shouldn't.


Developing anything in the business world is far more complicated and costlier than what happens in a mostly mod-based community. I believe someone here even made a hypothetical expense report, and it was quite reasonable.

The bigger chunk of the cost is probably (if I had to guess) in developing new assets. You see, creating Alpine Peaks after Frozen city didn't cost as much. Even though alpine peaks is significantly larger. Because many of the assets used to build it (mostly doodads) were created during the development of Frozen city. That's an example. Now on the other hand, the new swamp or forest map (I think forest) will cost a lot more than the other urban map being created alongside it. Since it will use resources non-existent in the other maps.

Except, I really doubt that when a community can do things with the same engine for free, that PGI is spending more than half the cost to build a Real World, High End Race Car PER MAP. I'm talking Race Cars for a multi million dollar company and race team here.

Especially when these maps are so bug littered as these currently are.

I'm more curious as to why resources are being squandered so heavily than the actual costs.
For that matter, how is it these maps, which are horrendously buggy cost more than a NEXTEL Cup Car?

I'm just saying for the sheer cost of these maps, we definitely aren't seeing the polish. Think about how many times mechs get stuck on little pebbles, solely because of invisible walls, and on the flip side, how often it is that we can shoot THROUGH terrain and hit the mech on the other side in the right places.

Quality Control evidently isn't part of that cost process.
The game's pretty Fugly to look at compared to most Cry Engine games especially so it's not graphics Fidelity either.
The Physics are below average so it's not that.

Edited by Mavairo, 12 May 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Archon, on 12 May 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I get that, but why not use doodads that already exist? I'd be fine with having say 5 different forest maps, 5 different snow maps and 5 different urban maps all using the same doodads but with totally different layouts. Is it that hard to do this with a map editor?

They are using doodads that already exist, with many of their maps. They are basically building a foundation for what would make their map building process significantly faster.


The real problem is that this isn't a mod someone can crank out. This is a software development project with a proper development model, where there are infinitely more restrictions than me just mish mashing a map.

[IraqiWalker]

Mavairo, on 12 May 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Except, I really doubt that when a community can do things with the same engine for free, that PGI is spending more than half the cost to build a Real World, High End Race Car PER MAP. I'm talking Race Cars for a multi million dollar company and race team here.

Especially when these maps are so bug littered as these currently are.

I'm more curious as to why resources are being squandered so heavily than the actual costs.
For that matter, how is it these maps, which are horrendously buggy cost more than a NEXTEL Cup Car?

I'm just saying for the sheer cost of these maps, we definitely aren't seeing the polish. Think about how many times mechs get stuck on little pebbles, solely because of invisible walls, and on the flip side, how often it is that we can shoot THROUGH terrain and hit the mech on the other side in the right places.

Quality Control evidently isn't part of that cost process.
The game's pretty Fugly to look at compared to most Cry Engine games especially so it's not graphics Fidelity either.
The Physics are below average so it's not that.

All I can say is that you have obviously not dealt with software development before, nor dealt with salaries for employees. Professionals require money. PGI won't release the assets they are using easily, they won't take community created material because even if you create a good map, they will still have to go through it, millimeter by millimeter to make sure things aren't off, and there are no hidden exploits or bugs in it. Even more so because those same people that will be doing that, should be working on other things instead.

You know what. Go ahead and make a map using the CryEngine dev kit. Make one that works for MW:O. Then tell us how easy it was.

[KingCobra]

(If you had read through this thread, or even checked the last post I made, you would've seen that they already announced two maps on the way.

Also, making maps isn't as easy as you think it is. That has been also discussed through about 3 or 4 pages of this thread. There's a difference between building a map, and actually making one that is viable for the game. )

Making a few new maps 2 years after the fact they were needed 2 years ago and there still in the works? I stand by what I posted.And making maps for this game is not to hard I have already made a few on my own with the CRY3 SDK. but I did make over 20 MechWarrio2-4 maps so its not that hard.Even making battlefield2 maps is not that hard with there mapmaker.Many maps could have been made by the community and tested for bug in a matter of weeks by a competent QA team and department.

Owe im sorry does PGI/IGP even have a QA department? but im glad they have 2 new maps in the works maybe we will see those this coming next year!!!! hahahaha.

[Mavairo]

IraqiWalker, on 12 May 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

All I can say is that you have obviously not dealt with software development before, nor dealt with salaries for employees. Professionals require money. PGI won't release the assets they are using easily, they won't take community created material because even if you create a good map, they will still have to go through it, millimeter by millimeter to make sure things aren't off, and there are no hidden exploits or bugs in it. Even more so because those same people that will be doing that, should be working on other things instead.

You know what. Go ahead and make a map using the CryEngine dev kit. Make one that works for MW:O. Then tell us how easy it was.

If you really believe that it takes a 1/4 million dollars to design a bug ridden map that lacks a destructible environment (not even destroyable doodads).

Sure if these maps were Halo Grade maybe, I could buy that. But they aren't. They aren't Professional Grade maps, and they certainly aren't of comparable quality to real world products made by multi million dollar companies to perform on the utmost levels of their field using ludicrously expensive materials, backed by engineers who frankly know alot more about math and physics than the lot of these monkeys at PGI do.

250k for a map is definitely too steep. I have made maps and scenarios in various other games, and really it's just not that hard. Maps are some of the easiest things you can make in a game. It's no where near as difficult as developing the game engine, etc.

There's people in this very thread that ARE working with the cry engine, there's quite a few people that HAVE worked with MW LL, and most of them will tell you and some of them HAVE told you that it's alot easier than what PGI would have you believe.

PGI's shelling out for a 458 Italia... and they are getting a 1986 Chevette in return.


Vs HPG Manifold and Canyon Network. You really think HPG Manifold and Canyon cost PGI more to build than that SRT10 cost Chrysler?

Edited by Mavairo, 12 May 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Foxwalker]

MischiefSC, on 25 April 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

In my business, if a customer started a conversation with that sort of tone, regardless of the validity of their comment or request, I'd utterly ignore it. More to the point I would rather fail as a business and die poor then ever, even once, for one moment, reward that sort of demanding entitlement behavior.

It's worth saying that new maps would be great. That we really want some even. Doing so by sounding like a demanding, entitled brat makes me hope that we never get another map again ever. I'd be disappointed in PGI and what they are teaching the human race if they were to release a map in response to someone speaking to them like this.

So, my comment is, please PGI. I beg of you. Don't release any new maps for a couple of months. Just because giving anyone even an erroneous assumption that speaking to anyone, ever, about anything, in this manner results in a positive outcome. Do the human race a favor.

I would agree with you if this were the first such request / demand. Unfortunately, we have seen many months go by and many polite requests for this, followed by hopeful suggestions, followed by begging, then pleading and finally in complete frustration, demanding. I get the frustration level rise. We want the game to succeed and continue to and be around to play for a long time.

[ApolloKaras]

I'm willing to bet that those that are complaining are unaware of the cost of making the map....

[stog]

it seems lots of people have their own idea of what type of map is best. So why not just make lots of maps?

[ApolloKaras]

stog, on 12 May 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

it seems lots of people have their own idea of what type of map is best. So why not just make lots of maps?

Cost....

[Almond Brown]

There are but 2 truths about Maps and Games.

1) There are never enough Maps.

2) The NEW ones produced never hold the Players attention long enough and thus we end back at #1 inside 2 weeks of a new release. (3 weeks if 2 New Maps come out simultaneously)

Edited by Almond Brown, 12 May 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Davers]

Mavairo, on 12 May 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

I too have to wonder how it costs $250,000 dollars to build a map. Especially when MWO LL uses the same game engine, and has far better detailed maps. (doesn't LL also have destructible environments?)

We have also had LL players say that some of the maps were very unbalanced and were in no way considered a professional product.

[Mavairo]

Davers, on 12 May 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

We have also had LL players say that some of the maps were very unbalanced and were in no way considered a professional product.

Like PGIs maps are the pinnacle of balanced play

Case in point, Caustic Valley and it's general existence, and about half of the new map spawn points that make it easy for one side to bring 2 lances to bear on the opposing team while not having the same disadvantage on the other.

To say nothing of all the pebbles, and invisible walls to get stuck on in this game. Which are some of the worst I've seen since the 90s.