31 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 May 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

Right, the only difference between LRM's now and FTL LRM's would be that FTL LRM's either miss entirely (as LRM's currently function anyway) or hit and do ALL the salvo damage to a single crit location. Insanely OP. I'm imagining the FTL LRM 60-75 that I'd immediately build. Instant cores with any hit.

The "instant cores" that you're imagining would not be guaranteed; that would require each of the "leaders" of the 3-5 missile launchers used to make up a "LRM 60-75" build to hit the same location (that is, all 3-5 "leaders" would have to 1.) not miss and 2.) hit the same hitbox), and it would require that the target's position & facing not change too much between when the "leaders" struck and when the "followers" arrived (e.g. a "leader" hits a fast target, that is able to get behind cover or twist a weakened hitbox away before the "followers" arrive).

[Captain Stiffy]

Strum Wealh, on 12 May 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

The "instant cores" that you're imagining would not be guaranteed; that would require each of the "leaders" of the 3-5 missile launchers used to make up a "LRM 60-75" build to hit the same location (that is, all 3-5 "leaders" would have to 1.) not miss and 2.) hit the same hitbox), and it would require that the target's position & facing not change too much between when the "leaders" struck and when the "followers" arrived (e.g. a "leader" hits a fast target, that is able to get behind cover or twist a weakened hitbox away before the "followers" arrive).

I'm not seeing it being functionally useful in any way around AMS that would kill the leader instantly.

[El Bandito]

Strum Wealh, on 26 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Long ago, was stated in Ask the Devs 17 that alternate ammo types are planned for eventual implementation.

...such that LRM & SRM launchers might eventually get access to alternate guidance systems like Heat-Seeking Warheads (implemented as locking onto the hottest target near the aim point if fired without a missile lock)

If they still had the predator vision from before, I would imagine it will help better with the heat seeking missile implementation.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

FupDup, on 12 May 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

Cluster Arrow: Sarna doesn't describe it very well, but I'm getting the impression that they're another ammo type focused on anti-infantry.

And you would be incorrect. Cluster is the "standard" warhead type of the Arrow IV munitions family. The normal Homing type requires TAG to even make a to-hit roll in TT and deals damage to a single target with a shaped charge. Arrow IV Cluster Missiles use an unguided area saturation warhead like normal artillery rounds. Normal tube artillery has an Arrow IV Homing Missile equivalent in the Copperhead shells. Be glad there are no consumables using Copperheads or externally mounted aerospace Arrow IV Homing Missiles because TAG would make the PPC/AC poptart meta look balanced.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 12 May 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[3Xtr3m3]

Variety is good,
But I fear for the "Gold Ammo" talked about in other games.
How do you introduce this without breaking balance or invoking Pay 2 Win?
Maybe this is doable, but I would prefer they introduce variations in weapons that you have also talked about, Strum
The big slow single shell of some AC's versus high speed streams of up to a hundred shells on other variants.

[Nathan Foxbane]

3Xtr3m3, on 12 May 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Variety is good,
But I fear for the "Gold Ammo" talked about in other games.
How do you introduce this without breaking balance or invoking Pay 2 Win?
Maybe this is doable, but I would prefer they introduce variations in weapons that you have also talked about, Strum
The big slow single shell of some AC's versus high speed streams of up to a hundred shells on other variants.

Easy. Make it a C-Bill purchase like any other ammo. Use SRMs for an example: instead of just SRM ammo there would be SRM ammo (normal) and Inferno ammo (special) available to mount on a build when doing build. Might even just add another tab like the weapon grouping tab where you select how many tons of what type of ammo your 'Mech carries out of how many tons total for a given weapons system, and pay the C-bill difference on any special ammo types.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I would welcome those ammunition types...problem is that I doubt some1 in PGI ever read any BT book(see ECM and BAP introduction,AC/PPC one-shot wonders...)

Strum Wealh, on 12 May 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

The "instant cores" that you're imagining would not be guaranteed; that would require each of the "leaders" of the 3-5 missile launchers used to make up a "LRM 60-75" build to hit the same location (that is, all 3-5 "leaders" would have to 1.) not miss and 2.) hit the same hitbox), and it would require that the target's position & facing not change too much between when the "leaders" struck and when the "followers" arrived (e.g. a "leader" hits a fast target, that is able to get behind cover or twist a weakened hitbox away before the "followers" arrive).

If I remember right smthing like that was in MW4 where you were able to target single location with Streaks and LRMs and then missiles focused that location.

[Graugger]

ALTERNATE MUNITIONS FOR MISSILE LAUNCHERS & STANDARD AUTOCANNONS?


... No.

[El Bandito]

3Xtr3m3, on 12 May 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Variety is good,
But I fear for the "Gold Ammo" talked about in other games.
How do you introduce this without breaking balance or invoking Pay 2 Win?
Maybe this is doable, but I would prefer they introduce variations in weapons that you have also talked about, Strum
The big slow single shell of some AC's versus high speed streams of up to a hundred shells on other variants.

There is already a type of ammo that is invoking the P2W aspect. It is called Artillery Strike. Only this one is one shot but does not require extra tonnage.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2014 - 08:47 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Graugger, on 12 May 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

ALTERNATE MUNITIONS FOR MISSILE LAUNCHERS & STANDARD AUTOCANNONS?


... No.

And why not?

[Strum Wealh]

FupDup, on 12 May 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

The ones that are outwardly apparent to me:


Follow-The-Leader LRMs: Current LRMs don't use the random targeting hits table from TT, so these might be basically useless or at best not offer any real benefit over normal ammo. Current LRMs tend to clump around center mass, or hit the legs of fast targets.

Fragmentation Missiles: No infantry to attack, and even if we did have infantry it would be more efficient (tonnage wise) to just sweep over infantry with a Medium Laser (beam duration FTW) than dedicate tonnage to specialized ammo.

Acid SRMs: Crap against non-Ferro armor, which means the vast majority of targets in MWO.

Tear Gas: Incapable of killing any kind of target, not even infantry (which MWO doesn't even have).

Flak AC ammo: No aircraft, and I would rather use LBX cluster rounds or hitscan lasers to shoot down planes anyways.

Flechette AC ammo: Same problems as Fragmentation LRMs (MWO's beam-duration lasers would be murderous against infantry for way less tonnage and more anti-mech damage, and we don't even have infantry in the first place).

Heat Seeking Missiles: Don't seem to have any real benefit over normal ammo (which hit hot and cold targets with equal prejudice).

Air-Defense Arrow: The closest thing to airborne targets we have are JJ'ing mechs, which can be killed with any weapon type. Also, they can just let go of space bar to become immune to this ammo type.

Cluster Arrow: Sarna doesn't describe it very well, but I'm getting the impression that they're another ammo type focused on anti-infantry.

Illumination Arrow: Everybody has alternate vision modes that work at medium-short range to "illuminate" targets, and at long range it's probably kind of silly to be using such a heavy and bulky missile system (the Arrow IV) for making things more visible. Increasing our own gamma/brightness via the in-game options menu can bypass any lack of visibility at night, or at least could if it wasn't broken right now (has no effect). Also, we only have 1 night map.

Tracer AC ammo: See Illumination Arrow issues.

FTL Missiles: IMO, it depends on the exact implementation; the ability to concentrate an entire LRM-15 salvo on one location (thus allowing the launcher to hit like a Gauss Rifle... if it hits) or concentrate an entire LRM-20 salvo on one location (thus allowing the launcher to hit like an AC/20... if it hits )seems like a rather potent one, though they could use a Streak-like randomization element, or just weaker tracking, to offset the possibility of pouring massive salvos into one

Frag Missiles: Agreed on the point that they have no real place without infantry.

Acid Missiles: They were developed as an anti-Clan weapon system... and plenty of Clan OmniMechs make use of FF armor & cannot change armor type.

Tear Gas Missiles: Agreed on the point that they have no real place without infantry.

Flak Shells: While there may be no aircraft (beyond the UAVs) to shoot down, Flak shells could be given a similar (albeit weaker) version of the LB-X Cluster rounds' crit-seeking ability, thus letting the Standard ACs serve as "poor mens' LB-X ACs" (especially with regard to the ACs other than the Standard AC/10).

Flechette Shells: Flechette shells would be largely redundant versys Flak shells, and would have no real place without infantry.

Heat Seeking Missiles: Since they home in on thermal emissions rather than relying on radar & telemetry links, they could be made immune to ECM (e.g. dumb-fire to near the target, then the missile itself takes over and goes for the hottest nearby object - usually, a 'Mech), but they could have issues (expressed as weakened tracking strength & lower likelihood of hitting) when the temperature differentials are lower (such as on hot maps, like Terra Therma or Caustic Valley).

Air Defense Arrow: Agreed on the point that they have no real place without destructable AeroSpace assets.

Illumination Arrow: Agreed that they (along with Flare LRMs) might not have a place if the ability to adjust the gamma settings can be used to circumvent night environments & unless a map specifically tailored to them is created.

Tracer Shells: Agreed that they have no real place as an independent ammo type, since the current implementation of Standard shells already have tracer characteristics as well.

[FupDup]

I didn't comment on all of them because in some cases there wasn't really much to say (i.e. the illumination Arrow, etc.).

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

FTL Missiles: IMO, it depends on the exact implementation; the ability to concentrate an entire LRM-15 salvo on one location (thus allowing the launcher to hit like a Gauss Rifle... if it hits) or concentrate an entire LRM-20 salvo on one location (thus allowing the launcher to hit like an AC/20... if it hits )seems like a rather potent one, though they could use a Streak-like randomization element, or just weaker tracking, to offset the possibility of pouring massive salvos into one

Maybe. These missiles seem kind of difficult to theorycraft about. They could go either way.

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Acid Missiles: They were developed as an anti-Clan weapon system... and plenty of Clan OmniMechs make use of FF armor & cannot change armor type.

I forgot all about the Clans...I guess these might have some utility (provided that we know if we're about to go into a Clan vs IS match or IS vs IS, so that we aren't carrying ammo that might not be very useful (since the IS doesn't use FF beyond lights most of the time) ).

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Flak Shells: While there may be no aircraft (beyond the UAVs) to shoot down, Flak shells could be given a similar (albeit weaker) version of the LB-X Cluster rounds' crit-seeking ability, thus letting the Standard ACs serve as "poor mens' LB-X ACs" (especially with regard to the ACs other than the Standard AC/10).

Maybe, but honestly they would probably have the same weaknesses as regular LBX cluster shots...I would rather blow out a whole section and crit out everything there than just crit out the components without destroying the section. That crit bonus would have to be much higher than what the current LBX has.

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Heat Seeking Missiles: Since they home in on thermal emissions rather than relying on radar & telemetry links, they could be made immune to ECM (e.g. dumb-fire to near the target, then the missile itself takes over and goes for the hottest nearby object - usually, a 'Mech), but they could have issues (expressed as weakened tracking strength & lower likelihood of hitting) when the temperature differentials are lower (such as on hot maps, like Terra Therma or Caustic Valley).

Hot maps like Mordor are so common that I'm not sure how many people would take the risk of carrying an ammo type that only "sometimes" works.

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Flechette Shells: Flechette shells would be largely redundant versys Flak shells, and would have no real place without infantry.

Tear Gas Missiles: Agreed on the point that they have no real place without infantry.

Frag Missiles: Agreed on the point that they have no real place without infantry.

The sad thing is, adding infantry wouldn't suddenly make those ammo types useful. Tear Gas, in particular, is non-lethal...why would I bother trying to disperse infantry when I could kill them? That would make no sense.

For the others, I can just use a Medium Laser for anti-infantry. The only thing that made anti-infantry weapons and ammo work in TT was the random-hit system and the ability to kill multiple infantry with a single "shot" (i.e. maximum of 24 soldiers killed by firing a single Flamer once). Here in MWO, we have the ability to aim our weapons, and we have this nifty mechanic called beam duration. This means I can just literally point-and-click with any laser weapon to make an enemy trooper go away, and I can drag the beam in order to kill multiple soldiers with a single "shot." Plus, lasers are also much more effective against mech armor.

Strum Wealh, on 13 May 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Air Defense Arrow: Agreed on the point that they have no real place without destructable AeroSpace assets.

I'd personally rather use an ER Large Laser or something to shoot down aircraft than dedicate ammo to doing something that other weapons can already adequately do...especially because the Arrow IV is such a huge weapon system in the first place (gotta make use of that tonnage as best you can).

Edited by FupDup, 13 May 2014 - 08:35 AM.