46 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

It works well beyond 750 on certain maps; particularly daytime ones. Crimson Strait works out to 1,100 meters for thermal, 900-ish for night vision. Though it's quite obvious these were not intended effects.

[Swinebeast]

The range limit does make sense in that case.

Wow, a 100 engine? Armored 360? I know it has 360 turret traverse, I don't know battle tech law, it looked pretty funky.

[Koniving]

Swinebeast, on 27 April 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Wow, a 100 engine? Armored 360? I know it has 360 turret traverse, I don't know battle tech law, it looked pretty funky.

The Urban Mech has a 60-rated engine stock, goes about 32 kph or so and carries an AC/10 and 2 small lasers. It's the height of a spider though fatter (because it has about twice as much armor stock). Problem is in MWO, that armor means nothing because at max armor it'd be identical to MWO's spider. With no speed and FAT.

Mechs have their appearances due to Unique armor tonnages. However PGI kept MWO's universal create-a-mech armor rules for making custom mechs.

I had a concept to work around it.

Spoiler

Lets say that all mechs are not created armor-equal; that a Thunderbolt, Jagermech and Catapult cannot equip equal armor.
Lets use lore.
Jagermech: While it does address the Rifleman's heat issues and limited ammunition, it does so at the cost of significant armor protection. Carrying only a miserly six tons of standard armor, the JagerMech is very vulnerable to return fire. (6 tons in MWO is 192 points).
Catapult: Its ten tons of armor, fifteen heat sinks and top speed of 64.8 km/h allows the Catapult to deliver its payload of Long Range Missiles on an enemy from great distances without the risk of return fire. (10 tons of armor in MWO is 320; equal to a Hunchback).
Thunderbolt: As is common for 'Mechs of its size in the era it was produced, the Thunderbolt has a maximum ground speed of 64.8 kph and does not have any jump capabilities. For protection, the Thunderbolt also carries thirteen tons of armor. (13 tons of armor in MWO 416; just half a ton short of a Stalker's armor and superior to every lore-friendly Victor variant in existence yet massively inferior to the armor of an awesome. It is superior in armor to the Cataphract 3D, 1X, 2X, and just slightly inferior in armor to the Cataphracts 4X and Muromets).

Now. Lets say Variant's Stock armor tonnage + X tonnage = variant's maximum possible armor. Just for an example let's say 3 tons is the max you can add in armor. We're going to have a look at 30 ton mechs.
In MWO the current max for a 30 ton mech is 210.

• Lets take a Spider. 112 points of armor; that's 3.5 tons. 96 is 3 tons. So 3.5 tons + 3 tons more is 6.5 tons. 112 thusly + 96 = 208 points of armor (a Raven 2X's stock). We'll call this the Spider's new maximum. Its top speed is 129 kph.
  
• Compare to Anubis. 5.5 tons Stealth armor (weighs the same as standard; in lore you HAVE to have this to have Zero signature with ECM and it consumes 12 slots). That's 176 points stock. + 96 = 272 or 8.5 tons of armor for its new max under this idea. Goes 129 kph stock, but mind you this mech is 3063 and future tech.
  
• So let's be fair and use Artic Cheetah; this guy goes 130 kph stock and has 4 tons of Ferro Fibrous. Unmentioned before but one tweak Buckminister had to this concept was to make Ferro more useful; notice we said tonnage. 4 tons of Ferro is 144 points (where 4 tons of standard is 128 points), and 3 more tons of Ferro is 108. So 4 + 3 or 144 + 108 = 7 tons of Ferro and 252 points of armor. (Remove Ferro and that'd be a limit of 224 points). But this is a Clan mech.
  
• Back to the Inner Sphere! Hammer (3053) goes 86.4 and has 6 tons of armor (192). So + 3 tons (96) gives it 9 tons or "288" points of armor.
  
• Copperhead (3054) has 4.5 tons of armor at 144 points turns into 7.5 tons at 240 points and goes 97 kph stock.
  
• Now lets take an Urban Mech. Of these all it has the meanest punch. Goes 32 kph. Six tons of armor at 192 (Jagermech S armor) that with the new rule I'm using gets a new max of 9 tons (288) armor.
  
• (Note, we DO NOT change structure values under any circumstances. Every 30 ton mech's structure value in MWO is 111, which counts the 6 additional points added to every cockpit's structure to reduce instant headshots.
  
• Total health of a mech is Structure + Armor.
  
• This means the Urban Mech at stock would be 303 health. At MWO's limit would be 321. With my armor concept it would be 399.
  
• The Spider in turn, stock 223 health. At MWO's limit 321. With my armor concept 319.
  
• If you slapped on Ferro. Armor with max Ferro: Spider 234 and Urban 324

Total maximum possible health (structure + Ferro armor) after my concept: Spider 345 and Urbanmech 435.

Interesting how that kinda worked out with so little effort on my part. o.O;

Speeds at stock: Spider: 129 kph. Urbamech: 32 kph.

To compare and show how this works across variants, here are Ravens:

• 3-L: 161 (invalid; even tonnage is 160) stock. 256 standard max. 288 Ferro max. 234 MWO current max.
  
• 2X: 208 stock. 304 standard max. 342 Ferro max.
  
• 4X: 224 stock. 320 standard max. 360 Ferro max.
  
• Huginn hero: 232 Ferro stock (invalid; even tonnage is 234). 342 Ferro max. 304 Standard max.
  
• Huginn Hero with Ferro removed but armor at same tonnage is 208 armor; identical to a Raven 2X.
  
• A 35 ton mech's structure is 123 including the 6 points of additional cockpit structure (would be 117 otherwise).
  
• The strongest Raven in armor is the 4X, who with Ferro and structure health combined would be 483 total health. Equal to a Jenner F; the strongest armored Jenner.
  
• The weakest Raven in armor is the 3-L, who with Ferro and structure health combined would have a maximum potential of 411 (less than an Urbanmech).
  
• For comparison, the strongest Firestarter A is equal to a Raven 2X in armor. So 208 stock, 304 standard max, 342 ferro max, total maximum potential with ferro and structure health is 465.
  
• The average Firestarter variants including the Ember is 176 points stock, 272 max standard, 306 max ferro, and max potential with ferro and structure is 429.

Those sound awfully high, don't they? But we just used one number so it's literally stock sliding upwards. No percentages, no offsets, no imbalances. Just stock + 3 tons more armor.


As a solid middle ground comparison, the Hunchback across all variants is 320 armor stock. MWO's current max is 338. After the concept, 416 armor standard max, 468 ferro max. Structure is 175 for 50 ton mechs, and total health with structure and max ferro is 643. Sounds high doesn't it?

You'd still only need about 80 to 100 damage to kill said Hunchback. That's just the total structure and armor.

What's interesting is with this system, certain variants of Locust, Jenner, Commando, and Cicada have identical armor values; but since structure is unchanged even with the same armor values the Cicada will live the longest.

We could easily use stock + 1 ton (32 points standard or 36 points Ferro) or stock + 2 tons (64 points standard or 72 points ferro) instead if it turns out that 3 tons of additional armor is too high.

Note that with this concept is an adjoining re-balancing of engine ratings to keep certain mechs from having extreme advantages with MWO's current system and maintaining certain lore-friendly aspects of speed differentials between mechs.

There is also this post with a Victor versus Awesome, and Highlander/Locust versus twin Shadowhawks with this concept.

Hope you enjoyed a minute of balancing with Koniving.

Edited by Koniving, 28 April 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Gasoline]

Koniving, on 27 April 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

The Urban Mech has a 60-rated engine stock, goes about 32 kph or so and carries an AC/10 and 2 small lasers. It's the height of a spider though fatter (because it has about twice as much armor stock). Problem is in MWO, that armor means nothing because at max armor it'd be identical to MWO's spider. With no speed and FAT.

Mechs have their appearances due to Unique armor tonnages. However PGI kept MWO's universal create-a-mech armor rules for making custom mechs.

I had a concept to work around it.

Spoiler

Lets say that all mechs are not created armor-equal; that a Thunderbolt, Jagermech and Catapult cannot equip equal armor.
Lets use lore.
Jagermech: While it does address the Rifleman's heat issues and limited ammunition, it does so at the cost of significant armor protection. Carrying only a miserly six tons of standard armor, the JagerMech is very vulnerable to return fire. (6 tons in MWO is 192 points).
Catapult: Its ten tons of armor, fifteen heat sinks and top speed of 64.8 km/h allows the Catapult to deliver its payload of Long Range Missiles on an enemy from great distances without the risk of return fire. (10 tons of armor in MWO is 320; equal to a Hunchback).
Thunderbolt: As is common for 'Mechs of its size in the era it was produced, the Thunderbolt has a maximum ground speed of 64.8 kph and does not have any jump capabilities. For protection, the Thunderbolt also carries thirteen tons of armor. (13 tons of armor in MWO 416; just half a ton short of a Stalker's armor and superior to every lore-friendly Victor variant in existence yet massively inferior to the armor of an awesome. It is superior in armor to the Cataphract 3D, 1X, 2X, and just slightly inferior in armor to the Cataphracts 4X and Muromets).

Now. Lets say Variant's Stock armor tonnage + X tonnage = variant's maximum possible armor. Just for an example let's say 3 tons is the max you can add in armor. We're going to have a look at 30 ton mechs.
In MWO the current max for a 30 ton mech is 210.

• Lets take a Spider. 112 points of armor; that's 3.5 tons. 96 is 3 tons. So 3.5 tons + 3 tons more is 6.5 tons. 112 thusly + 96 = 208 points of armor (a Raven 2X's stock). We'll call this the Spider's new maximum. Its top speed is 129 kph.
  
• Compare to Anubis. 5.5 tons Stealth armor (weighs the same as standard; in lore you HAVE to have this to have Zero signature with ECM and it consumes 12 slots). That's 176 points stock. + 96 = 272 or 8.5 tons of armor for its new max under this idea. Goes 129 kph stock, but mind you this mech is 3063 and future tech.
  
• So let's be fair and use Artic Cheetah; this guy goes 130 kph stock and has 4 tons of Ferro Fibrous. Unmentioned before but one tweak Buckminister had to this concept was to make Ferro more useful; notice we said tonnage. 4 tons of Ferro is 144 points (where 4 tons of standard is 128 points), and 3 more tons of Ferro is 108. So 4 + 3 or 144 + 108 = 7 tons of Ferro and 252 points of armor. (Remove Ferro and that'd be a limit of 224 points). But this is a Clan mech.
  
• Back to the Inner Sphere! Hammer (3053) goes 86.4 and has 6 tons of armor (192). So + 3 tons (96) gives it 9 tons or "288" points of armor.
  
• Copperhead (3054) has 4.5 tons of armor at 144 points turns into 7.5 tons at 240 points and goes 97 kph stock.
  
• Now lets take an Urban Mech. Of these all it has the meanest punch. Goes 32 kph. Six tons of armor at 192 (Jagermech S armor) that with the new rule I'm using gets a new max of 9 tons (288) armor.
  
• (Note, we DO NOT change structure values under any circumstances. Every 30 ton mech's structure value in MWO is 111, which counts the 6 additional points added to every cockpit's structure to reduce instant headshots.
  
• Total health of a mech is Structure + Armor.
  
• This means the Urban Mech at stock would be 303 health. At MWO's limit would be 321. With my armor concept it would be 399.
  
• The Spider in turn, stock 223 health. At MWO's limit 321. With my armor concept 319.
  
• If you slapped on Ferro. Armor with max Ferro: Spider 234 and Urban 324

Total maximum possible health (with Ferro armor) after my concept: Spider 345 and Urbanmech 435.






Speeds at stock: Spider: 129 kph. Urbamech: 32 kph.

To compare and show how this works across variants, here are Ravens.

• 3-L: 161 (invalid; even tonnage is 160) stock. 256 standard max. 288 Ferro max. 234 MWO current max.
  
• 2X: 208 stock. 304 standard max. 342 Ferro max.
  
• 4X: 224 stock. 320 standard max. 360 Ferro max.
  
• Huginn hero: 232 Ferro stock (invalid; even tonnage is 234). 342 Ferro max. 304 Standard max.
  
• Huginn Hero with Ferro removed but armor at same tonnage is 208 armor; identical to a Raven 2X.

Note that with this concept is an adjoining re-balancing of engine ratings to keep certain mechs from having extreme advantages with MWO's current system and maintaining certain lore-friendly aspects of speed differentials between mechs.

Hope you enjoyed a minute of balancing with Koniving.

If only you were in fact balancing this game...

I'm all in for making chassis more unique. Especially the "armored" variants are usually the most undesirable variants in MWO, just because you can achieve that with every other chassis in that weight bracket while sporting better equipment or hardpoint layouts. The Awesome, Thunderbolt and all "inferior" Raven variants suffer the most. But since the whole principle of Role Warfare was thrown out of the window I have little hope...

As mithril coyote posted here customization in general is a bit borked in MWO (as are a lot of other systems... )

Edited by Gasoline, 28 April 2014 - 12:21 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Koniving, on 26 April 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

What I'd like to see is thermal actually take heat into account.

If it's "white hot," then why is the snow white? It should be black.

I'd also like to see Night vision take light into account.
It ignores many light sources.
Areas brightly illuminated in River city without the night vision are blandly dim with it. Yet areas that are 'dark' without night vision are obscenely bright. Sorry, but night vision amplifies light. It should not amplify darkness.

In addition, if I'm pumping lasers into a target, or hell, even a part of the SCENERY it should light up my opponent heat vision like a christmas tree.

[Modo44]

Ghost Badger, on 28 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

In addition, if I'm pumping lasers into a target, or hell, even a part of the SCENERY it should light up my opponent heat vision like a christmas tree.

Flamer decoys. Can you imagine?

[AlmightyAeng]

Modo44, on 28 April 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

Flamer decoys. Can you imagine?

And that's what they SHOULD be lol. Tactics. Thinking. Sneaky tricks. I want them all.