20 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

I have been thinking about jump jet mechs vs. non-jump jet mechs. I cannot think of why I would chose to strip a mech completely of jump jets. They seem to have some many advantages over their brethren without them. Because of this, I wonder what advantage non-jump jet mechs should have over jump jetting mechs.

One of the things i have thought about is maybe because of their design, jump jetting mechs are less heat efficient. That is to say, maybe they should be x% less efficient at dumping heat than mechs without jump jets. Maybe 10% or 20%, I don't know, but something along these lines.

I'm curious what everyone else things about advantages mechs without jump-jets should have over mechs with jump jets.

Sound off!

[DodgerH2O]

The answer, to me, should be that JJs have both disadvantages and advantages. Which is currently the case. Now the fact remains that the disadvantages can be negated by stripping out all the jump jets and turning a JJ chassis into a non-JJ mech, while non-JJers don't have the option of adding JJs, but that's kind of beside the point.

I think that once JJs are properly tuned, the advantage of mobility will be balanced by the requirement of critical slots and tonnage, and that's all that should be necessary. Whether we're at that point yet or not is something that people debate...

[Eddrick]

You can achieve the same goal by raising the heat generated by Jump Jets and get rid of the cap that says they will never generate more then 15% heat.

Not allowing a Mech to turn in the air would discourage the use of them a little, too. It would make then not very usefull in a battle with a brawler.

[101011]

I, on the other hand, do not like Jump Jets, and I always strip them to fit on more weapons/engine/armor. To each his own, I believe they are fine as is.

[Mavairo]

all non JJ mechs should be able to climb terrain like our mechs Used to (ie with no deceleration).

OR (could do both too)
Take the Crap maps like Forest Craponme out of rotation completely and put more maps like Crimson, and River city into the game.
Deletion of Craptic Valley would be another good start.

[Corwin Vickers]

What exactly are the disadvantages of sticking 1 JJ in your mech?

JJs in low amounts are far too good. You should have to add all the JJs your mech is capable of to have the ability that most mechs have with 1 atm.

JJs are whack atm. I have the Spider with the 8? (or 12?) JJs and it's crap, it's not 8x (or 11x) better than if I had 1.

[zazz0000]

Corwin Vickers, on 27 April 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

What exactly are the disadvantages of sticking 1 JJ in your mech?

JJs in low amounts are far too good. You should have to add all the JJs your mech is capable of to have the ability that most mechs have with 1 atm.

JJs are whack atm. I have the Spider with the 8? (or 12?) JJs and it's crap, it's not 8x (or 11x) better than if I had 1.

That.

JJ's should balance themselves simply with weight and crit space. They currently do not, because 2 JJ's seems basically optimal. And it's usually simple enough to free up that little room and weight for the benefit.

Then again if you put them in line that way it will break every JJ build out there (aside from ppl who already roll with JJ's maxed).

Are they really a problem as is though? Jumpin' mechs make good targets...

[process]

I'm torn.

Jump jets are always beneficial. A single jump jet is all you really need, even with the last nerf. The relative lack of forward thrust means you can pogo-snipe all day. Combined with torso twisting, they give you a decisive advantage in brawls, between damage spreading and making it more difficult for your opponent to aim. And on some maps like canyon network, falling off a steep hill with jump jets equipped doesn't mean a 1 km walk around to link up with your team.

On balancing, there are a number of things to try:

- more heat
- more weight
- more slots
- more appreciable performance with multiple jump jets/minimum jump jet quantity
- location specific = behavior, e.g., leg jump jets can't twist
- more forward thrust/less control
- reticle sway on ascent and descent
- better map design
- etc.

On the other hand, jump jets also don't feel right. I want them to have more range, and to be faster like previous Mechwarrior titles. I really just want this, somehow:

Edited by process, 27 April 2014 - 05:49 PM.

[Wraith 1]

It'd be nice if non-JJ and non-ECM variants got quirks that made up for how powerful JJ and ECM are. I don't care what it is, make 'em twist super fast for all I care, just give 'em something.

Alas, now I'm stuck with a non-JJ Oxide with a negative acceleration quirk, the only 'good' Atlas is the DDC, and the CTF-3D is still the best heavy.

[Asmudius Heng]

zazz0000, on 27 April 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Are they really a problem as is though? Jumpin' mechs make good targets...

Only if the pilot is bad.

A jumping mech moving sideways when jumping has more variable to take into account when you are shooting at it trying to land a shot as it is moving up/down and left/right

They can also drop behind cover quickly and where they appear from is more variable than a land bound mech.

Jump jets are very good - their effectiveness vs the wright and crits are not quite on par.

I do not know why they didnt just keep the reticle shake the entire way through the jump just reduced not eliminated it completely.

[dezgra]

You cannot, or should you try and balance them. Two different fish! If you all keep crying about balance this game is as good as dead.

Edited by dezgra, 27 April 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[WarZ]

Tlords, on 27 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I have been thinking about jump jet mechs vs. non-jump jet mechs. I cannot think of why I would chose to strip a mech completely of jump jets. They seem to have some many advantages over their brethren without them. Because of this, I wonder what advantage non-jump jet mechs should have over jump jetting mechs.

One of the things i have thought about is maybe because of their design, jump jetting mechs are less heat efficient. That is to say, maybe they should be x% less efficient at dumping heat than mechs without jump jets. Maybe 10% or 20%, I don't know, but something along these lines.

I'm curious what everyone else things about advantages mechs without jump-jets should have over mechs with jump jets.

Sound off!

The simple and probably best fix (without having to add new game mechanics or make various other nerfs) is to simply have the reticle shake & inaccuracy mechanic to be in effect ANYTIME a mech is in the air. Whether the jump jets are pushing them up, or they are falling down (lack of stabilization from ground contact).

Simple. And quite probably very easy to code since its already in place and just needs condition expansions.

Jump snipers -> Fixed.
Jump brawlers (though not an issue imo) -> equalized.

The current jump meta dependent players will have a screaming fit about this idea, but that doesnt make it any less valid. The reason they will have that fit is because PGi has been so inept at identifying and addressing the issue that they have become dependent on it and assume its right. They have fed the player base an over powered tactic for so long, that taking it away will be a shit storm of rage posts.

The one thing that the jump sniper meta never admit to is that its a very high reward vs. little to no risk tactic. They dont reply to the concept and pretend like its not a talking point.

Sad.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

JJ's currently do not have many of the drawbacks they should such as

-Increased heat past a small threshold (I.e. 3 JJ will never generate heat past 12%)
-Slow down the recharge times
-Collisions, increase scaling fall damage rather than a small negligible number. (also, we need DFA)
-More number scaling where 1-2 should not be very effective. Exponential effectiveness
-Less control when jetting, more unstable flight (rather than just the reticule).
-Inability to just tap the jets repeatedly to kill off JJ turns and infinite slope climbing. (so a 1-2 sec. cooldown on JJ's firing)


Done. Was it that hard? No, but go talk to PGI.

Edited by mwhighlander, 27 April 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[Graugger]

How about hit boxes for the JJ that bypass armor inflicting damage directly to the internals with an increased crit chance?

[QStar]

Imo jump jets need more heat. What about being able to use jump jets to move forward too, like you could in mw2?

[OznerpaG]

when i first started playing MWO a year ago i would never waste my time with any non-JJ mech - the mobility advantage was too amazing to pass up. 6 months later i decided to level the Blackjack since i tried the trial BJ-1 and it really impressed me, and one of the BJs i leveled was the BJ-1X which has no JJ but was 20kph faster. well lone behold the BJ-1X was my GO TO mech for 4 months afterwards and i rarely played any other mech and i quickly didn't miss having JJ. now if i play a JJ mech i often don't even remember to use them anymore lol

in any case Corwin Vickers is right - you really don't need more than 1 JJ since thats all you need to climb hills. if you want height then yes you need 2 or 3, but that's a pop-tart conversation.

one suggestion is to make the max speed of any JJ mech lower than any equivalent weight non-JJ mech - it's not much of a punishment since most people likely don't use the max speed on any mech, but it'd be a start

another suggestion would be to let non-JJ mechs climb ANY hill (except pure 90 degree gradients of course), but at a very reduced speed. i don't care if it's at 1kph, ANY mech should be able to climb an 89 degree gradient or under at some speed just so that ALL mechs are given the right to climb, no matter how slowly. on some maps (ahem - Canyon) JJ are a HUGE plus and non JJ mechs are at a pretty big disadvantage because of it. take away that big advantage and JJ might become slightly less advantageous

a final suggestion which will never be even considered but would make JJ more expensive is to make players buy a 'dummy' JJ before buying any real JJs which would be like a weight 'tax' to install JJs on a mech - so a Highlander would have to install a 2 ton 'dummy JJ' before installing a first JJ which would cost it 4t total for 1 JJ, 2t more for a 2nd JJ so 6t for 2 JJ, etc

[Graugger]

Or increase the cockpit shake of a JJting mech by 8x when they're hit by enemy fire.

[Triordinant]

ECM-capable 'mechs should not be jump-capable. You can have one or the other, but not both.

[Troutmonkey]

I say just increase fall damage for larger mechs. I can boost to max height in my Cata3D on 2JJs and fall without taking any damage to my legs. Lights on the other hand seem to take much more damage for smaller drops.

[XX Sulla XX]

Yes another thread about fixing something that is not a problem. If jump jets where a huge problem every one would only run jump jet mechs. This is not what happens. Now there was a problem with jump snipers but that is not a jump jet problem but a multifaceted. And jump jets have already been nurfed in turning ability for assaults. Lets try and fix things that are problems