89 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 28 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

I see similar things as well.

Although I do use 2x ER LLAS on a STK-3F build.




You have to go beyond 6 MLAS to incur heat scale penalties.

If you run 9 of them, you are doing 45 damage for 49.60 heat.

Base MLAS = 5 heat
9 x 5 = 45 Heat

49.60 / 9 = 5.51 heat per MLAS (that's right you only incurred 4.6 points of additional heat for boating 9x MLAS!)


So boating up to 9 of them only incurs a, roughly, 10% heat penalty per MLAS.


I think it's more the fear of ghost heat with most of the playerbase not actually understanding all of the mechanics behind it (because it is convoluted) that keeps people from boating 7+ MLs.

That, and the fact that there aren't actually that many Mechs that

1) Have 7+ energy slots
2) Have the speed and maneuverability to rely solely on 9x 270m range weapons.

4 heat base, actually

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

4 heat base, actually

And I corrected someone in this thread on that. Doh! Lol.

He poisoned my mind...yeah I'm going with that.

[Roland]

The ML isn't a bad weapon currently, but it should have its heat level reduced back to its original value.

Way back in closed beta, it was nerfed because prior to the netcode fixes, the Medium laser was actually a dominant weapon.. most people couldn't use PPC's or AC's effectively due to bad hit detection on those weapons.

But once the netcode improved, the ML was no longer the uber-weapon that it once was... and as such, it really should have its heat reduced to its original levels again.

[Endgame Prophecy]

I have two LRM15 on my Stalker so lights are constantly thinking I'm a missile boat and trying to pick me off. In truth, I pack most of my damage in MLAS and if it weren't for them, I'd be an easy meal. Nothing like a light charging into sub-200m range thinking he's going to leg you and eating a face full of Luke's lightsaber.

Edited by Endgame Prophecy, 28 April 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

at one ton, how exactly SHOULD a medium laser be comparable to other weapons?


(and I would say I am happy ER Large LAsers aren't more "effective" or your Light Stealth Snipers would be unstaoppable)

All the 'should' isn't really the medium laser itself, but how the heat and convergence affects all weapons that make it bad. For starters I don't see why lasers cycle so slow, but have a ton of heat and realitvely low range. As stated before, lasers aren't particularly good for anything other than leftovers (not good for burst, not good for sustained and not good for range). The have the lowest ranges, highest HPS and lowest DPS.

I would argue that light stealth snipers exsist because lights don't have the tonage or hps to put towards better weapon systems, so they have found a role that makes up for that lack of balance.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

The ML isn't a bad weapon currently, but it should have its heat level reduced back to its original value.

Way back in closed beta, it was nerfed because prior to the netcode fixes, the Medium laser was actually a dominant weapon.. most people couldn't use PPC's or AC's effectively due to bad hit detection on those weapons.

But once the netcode improved, the ML was no longer the uber-weapon that it once was... and as such, it really should have its heat reduced to its original levels again.

I won't disagree with you. But, can you imagine the Jenner and Firestarter hordes running around with what amounts to 4-6 less heat each time they pulled the trigger? The lil f'ers don't have any heat issues as it is. I'd hate to see what would happen if they ended up with even less heat problems.

[Mcgral18]

Trauglodyte, on 28 April 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

I won't disagree with you. But, can you imagine the Jenner and Firestarter hordes running around with what amounts to 4-6 less heat each time they pulled the trigger? The lil f'ers don't have any heat issues as it is. I'd hate to see what would happen if they ended up with even less heat problems.

They have plenty of heat issues. The heat system is pretty much against any sustained firepower. We have nerfed dissipation, but 3 times TT heat levels.

You have a hard time even making a heat neutral build in MWO. And there's no point since heat has a single impact, at 100% where you shut down.

[Trauglodyte]

McGral, are you going to agree with me on anything today? I feel like you're just straight hating on me on my day off.

[Mcgral18]

Trauglodyte, on 28 April 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

McGral, are you going to agree with me on anything today? I feel like you're just straight hating on me on my day off.

Not everything. But I've ran laser boats. You can fire twice, then you hit a wall. You have to wait 30 second to cool off after that. Lasers are one of the worst options for long term engagements.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mcgral18, on 28 April 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Not everything. But I've ran laser boats. You can fire twice, then you hit a wall. You have to wait 30 second to cool off after that. Lasers are one of the worst options for long term engagements.

Which is why you don't run them for sustained fire? Hit-and-run my friend...they're good at that. Or on flankers that end engagements quickly

Edited by Ghost Badger, 28 April 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ghost Badger, on 28 April 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Which is why you don't run them for sustained fire? Hit-and-run my friend...they're good at that. Or on flankers that end engagements quickly

My Banshees are designed to kill them before you hit that wall. 100 damage in 4 seconds...if you add a coolshot it can be done.

8 MPLs makes a nice wub. They just can't run very fast.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mcgral18, on 28 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

My Banshees are designed to kill them before you hit that wall. 100 damage in 4 seconds...if you add a coolshot it can be done.

8 MPLs makes a nice wub. They just can't run very fast.

Or turn very fast...which is why I make it a point NEVER TO BE IN FRONT OF THOSE.

[Mcgral18]

Ghost Badger, on 28 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Or turn very fast...which is why I make it a point NEVER TO BE IN FRONT OF THOSE.

The XL400 turns plenty fast. Only 80 armor though...It can take an AC40 and maybe an Atlas, but not both at once. On the plus side, it moves 75.

The 335....not so fast.

[Ultimax]

Bobzilla, on 28 April 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

For starters I don't see why lasers cycle so slow, but have a ton of heat and realitvely low range. As stated before, lasers aren't particularly good for anything other than leftovers (not good for burst, not good for sustained and not good for range). The have the lowest ranges, highest HPS and lowest DPS.

And the lowest weight.


That LLAS that has a longer recycle, and a heat cost, and "lower range"? It also has infinite ammo, and it only weighs 5 tons. (And the ER LLAS has a better Optimum range vs. any AC except for the AC 2 - which it weighs less than)

5 Tons is lower than an AC 2 before ammo even gets brought into the conversation.

The heaviest Energy weapons in the game weigh less than a single AC 5.


On top of that, laser weapons consistently have a single strike damage value per ton that is much, much higher than similar ballistic weapons.


2x LLAS and 4x MLAS = 8 slots, 14 Tons and is a 38 point alpha strike.

You can't even slot 2x AC 5s for that, much less their ammo.


It's not sustainable, it's not FLD and be glad it isn't because it is nearly 4x PPC damage and it is nearly 2x AC 20 damage except it weighs half as much as either of those configurations.



Caveats
1) I know it's not a perfect 1:1 comparison due to ranges, but standard lasers are extremely economical in their tonnage and critical slot requirements.
2) I do think we could have higher dissipation without things being out of wack, so I'd support that.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 April 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'd still like to see the heat dropped (for the Pulse Lasers as well). It would help lights and mediums and improve most brawling builds.

[Roland]

Also, in line with my prior statement regarding heat.... reducing the heat of the ML would go a long way towards balancing other weapons without resorting to nerfing them, as the ML is one of the primary brawling weapons in the game (same goes for the small laser).

[Charons Little Helper]

Roland, on 28 April 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Also, in line with my prior statement regarding heat.... reducing the heat of the ML would go a long way towards balancing other weapons without resorting to nerfing them, as the ML is one of the primary brawling weapons in the game (same goes for the small laser).

Do that and finally fix SRMs - and brawling will be back... baby.

[Jonny Taco]

4 med lasers is great additional firepower for when you close the gap. Lots up damage for not much weight. Once you get good at aiming with them you will never go back.

As others have stated, 2x ERLL and 4x medL is very very good... As before, requires good sustained aim.

Edited by lartfor, 28 April 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[Grimmrog]

MeiSooHaityu, on 28 April 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

For anyone who wants to learn good and proper heat management, I recommend rolling in a Hunchback 4P "Swayback". Operating that mech with 9MLasers. If you can sustain fire and hug the redline without going over the redline and shutting down, you can master heat management under pressure

this sounds more or lss uselss in overstuffign yourself with lasers. you heta up extremely fast and then you have to "slow down" your fire cycle, and in that case a few lasers get obsolete anyways since you can not use their full potential. All they are good for is a last breath alpha shortly before you die anyways.

@those people talkin about dmg/tonnage comparison.
While this on paper sounds good it is in real gameplay often half obsolete. as long as you do not haave a fast mech for hit and retreat there are too many situations where groups hill and cornerpopping make the ML laser boat useless since you can not close the gap and you are just watching the scene with "out of reach position". Yes within the city the loadout is fun, but since we can not chose the loadout after knowing the map I too often with the ML mechs stood there thinking: "should I make a kamikaze ambush to at leats not stand around bored and useless?" becaue when your team isn't pushing you stand there watching the LRM's PPK's and LL's fly while picking the nose. And a lone ambush often just ends in a fast death. especially since rarely some mechs have ECM which such a build would need. So basically the way how the game is played in mixed non preset groups ML are rather much luck based situational loadout. Another factor why long range stuff is so much more appealing. once you ahve an ECM bakcing you up, you pop out, fire, pop back and rarely anyone can track you within this time.

[Gas Guzzler]

Flaming oblivion, on 27 April 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

Would be true but as far as I understand it due to pin point damage 2 ac 20s would kill u llong before 8 ML's, I could be wrong though.

MLs can be pinpoint, if you are VERY good. You just have to hold them on one component, which is possible. Just remember though, that while it is more difficult to get the same level of damage, 8 MLs take up less then half the crit slots, less then a 3rd the tonnage, and have no ammo requirements, when compared to 2 AC20s. So yeah, it should definitely be easier to kill with 2 AC20s then 8 MLs. Same can be said about the comparison between MLs and the meta combo. OF COURSE the meta will be more effective, its WAY heavier than an array of medium lasers.

To the OP: MLs are very useful in close range. Their low weight and small size make them great backup/support weapons on bigger 'Mechs, and easy to "boat" on lighter 'Mechs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 28 April 2014 - 01:52 PM.