43 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Vermaxx, on 29 April 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Higher beam duration is a very effective way to completely negate higher damage, since you just end up with more pulse of potentially the same damage as before. To those in the elite, more damage. To most, no change.

Yes, balancing clan tech around 12 on 12 teams means clans effectively fail in MWO. They would be a true potential powerhouse if they required some kind of buy in (possibly MC or prohibitively expensive cbill cost) enable your account, and then the teams were always smaller for clan players.

PGI is trying to keep everyone in the same queue bucket, indicating community warfare is hella far off and clan players really won't be playing FOR anything. As such they lose a lot of what balanced the clans out - supply problems, inner sphere dickery, and uneven army numbers.

I kind of want a clan mech so I'm one of the cool kids in July, but I dunno if it's worth it to pay real money.

once the concept of RnR went out the window (even as poorly thought out as it was) that took away one of the biggest "canon" balancers to running Tier 2 and Clan Tech. Add to it the mindest of the FPS crowd, and you lose the ability to use numbers to stack the balance deck. So PGI painted themselves into a pretty corner of having to make the individual Mechs and Tech "balance" which while I don't think makes the Clans DOA, it totally removes their flavor from the game.

[tayhimself]

I'm fairly certain that clans mechs will be slightly better than most IS mechs other than the best ones. I have a feeling I'll have little trouble emptying out about 20 out of my 50 mechbays by getting rid of the trash mechs (QKD, THD, HBK, etc) when I need them for clan mechs.

PGI has been making new IS mechs at least as good as old ones in most cases and I'm confident that the clans will re-inforce that trend.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 29 April 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

Ya 3 Gauss & ERPPC may be superior, but there is no way to run 3 Gauss & Dual ERPPC in MWO.

And that sir... is sad.

[Haakon Magnusson]

3rdworld, on 29 April 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

2 ER PPC, 2 Gauss, & 23 DHS.....we may have an issue when the clans come.....

...
(smal laser build)
52 damage alpha, 24 heat with 22 DHS and nearly the range of a current Jenner @ ~90kph & JJs.

Yeah, exactly, even if they only increased ranges VERY little... they will still be OP by virtue of their tonnage/crits xl engine fiesta. Although I am guessing er clan lasers won't have THAT much bigger dps.. I hope.

I just love when pro-clanners cry and whine how their mechs are soooo bad. I for one welcome our new Diashi overlords.. erm sorry.. new endcontent/meta/whatever
(Sorry forgot, it is role warfare, assaults aren't the end content... it's not like they are the most expensive mechs or anything)

Edited by Haakon Magnusson, 29 April 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

This is what I came to play against. I want the Dave v Goliath up hill (both ways) Battle the Clan Invasion was. I want to EARN my wins. If I want fair and balanced Id fight the Dracs or Free Worlders.

What rational thought process would want an online game not to be balanced? How does that attract new players?

Edited by mogs01gt, 29 April 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

3rdworld, on 29 April 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

Ya 3 Gauss & ERPPC may be superior, but there is no way to run 3 Gauss & Dual ERPPC in MWO.

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

And that sir... is sad.

The Daishi B comes out of the box with at least two ballistic hardpoints in each side torso (for the double-UAC/2s mounted in each side-torso), at least one ballistic hardpoint in the Right Arm (for the LB 10-X mounted there), at least four energy hardpoints in the Left Arm (dual ER-PPCs + dual Medium Pulse Lasers), and at least one energy hardpoint in the Center-Torso (for the ER Small Laser mounted there).

The Daishi starts with 50.5 tons of pod space.
3 Clan Gauss Rifles (@ 12 tons apiece) = 36 tons
2 Clan ER-PPCs (@ 6 tons apiece) = 12 tons
Shave off 0.5t of armor and add 3 tons of Gauss Rifle ammo

You may now have your monster, Joseph Mallan...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 29 April 2014 - 07:01 AM.

[3rdworld]

Strum Wealh, on 29 April 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

The Daishi B comes out of the box with at least two ballistic hardpoints in each side torso (for the double-UAC/2s mounted in each side-torso), at least one ballistic hardpoint in the Right Arm (for the LB 10-X mounted there), at least four energy hardpoints in the Left Arm (dual ER-PPCs + dual Medium Pulse Lasers), and at least one energy hardpoint in the Center-Torso (for the ER Small Laser mounted there).

The Daishi starts with 50.5 tons of pod space.
3 Clan Gauss Rifles (@ 12 tons apiece) = 36 tons
2 Clan ER-PPCs (@ 6 tons apiece) = 12 tons
Shave off 0.5t of armor and add 3 tons of Gauss Rifle ammo

You may now have your monster, Joseph Mallan...

10 shots with your gauss, and only 15 dhs with 2 ERPPCs.....isn't going to be useful at all. Lord help you if you hit Terra Therma

Edited by 3rdworld, 29 April 2014 - 07:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Strum Wealh, on 29 April 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

The Daishi B comes out of the box with at least two ballistic hardpoints in each side torso (for the double-UAC/2s mounted in each side-torso), at least one ballistic hardpoint in the Right Arm (for the LB 10-X mounted there), at least four energy hardpoints in the Left Arm (dual ER-PPCs + dual Medium Pulse Lasers), and at least one energy hardpoint in the Center-Torso (for the ER Small Laser mounted there).

The Daishi starts with 50.5 tons of pod space.
3 Clan Gauss Rifles (@ 12 tons apiece) = 36 tons
2 Clan ER-PPCs (@ 6 tons apiece) = 12 tons
Shave off 0.5t of armor and add 3 tons of Gauss Rifle ammo

You may now have your monster, Joseph Mallan...

No. not yet. I don't get one till 3067.

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm a Inner Sphere Surrat that is upset cause my Clan Opponents have been cut down so much. Long Toms are 30 tons each... So how much tonnage do you think that should cost per Strike?

[Strum Wealh]

3rdworld, on 29 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

10 shots with your gauss, and only 15 dhs with 2 ERPPCs.....isn't going to be useful at all. Lord help you if you hit Terra Therma

Well, if one goes with the mindless "alpha-strike with everything as quickly as it can recycle, all the time" approach, then yes, it will have problems.

Those PPCs don't need to be fired simultaneously all the time, nor do they necessarily have to be fired every four seconds (doubly-so if/when one still has Gauss Rifle ammo available).

Granted, it wouldn't be my preferred loadout, but it can still be done and perhaps even be "effective" if the pilot exercises some discipline.

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

No. not yet. I don't get one till 3067.

Well, the Daishi B has been around since 3010, and did participate in the Invasion.
It's not unthinkable that you could pop the cockpit on one and salvage the rest of the 'Mech after scraping the now well-done ClanBurger out of it.

[Joseph Mallan]

mogs01gt, on 29 April 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Why rational thought process would want an online game not to be balanced? How does that attract new players?

Ask Dark Souls 2? They'd be better at answering that!

[Strum Wealh]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

I'm a Inner Sphere Surrat that is upset cause my Clan Opponents have been cut down so much. Long Toms are 30 tons each... So how much tonnage do you think that should cost per Strike?

For the 30-ton Long Tom Artillery Piece: 5-7 shots per ton.
For the 20-ton Long Tom Artillery Cannon: 5-7 shots per ton


Though, the Long Tom Cannon is too large to be mounted on 'Mechs without implementing crit-splitting & the Long Tom Artillery Piece is too large to be mounted on a 'Mech at all.
The Sniper & Thumper artillery cannons, on the other hand...

[Lootee]

They could give Clan weapons exactly the same range and damage as IS weapons and they'd still be superior because they weigh less and take fewer crits and have variants that are plain unavailable to the IS in 3049.

MWO didn't really need to add clantech into the mixture to achieve fail, though. It was doing that just fine before.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 29 April 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[Almond Brown]

The Clan Mechs will have some inherent bonuses the I.S. cannot ever utilize, until mixed tech.

Double Torso destruction when using XL engine (huge bonus)
2 slot DHS's means at least 3 more DHS's per chassis above the max a I.S. chassis can mount.( another big bonus)
Lighter weapons, less space consumption per weapon etc etc.

So the Clans won't be that bad. Unless if all that is wanted is terrifying Alpha strikes, like many whine about having lost already with the I.S. mechs.

[Wolfways]

Don't clan weapons generate more heat? That a hell of a big disadvantage in this game.

[Lootee]

Wolfways, on 29 April 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Don't clan weapons generate more heat? That a hell of a big disadvantage in this game.

No. Clan ERPPC made 15 heat just like the IS one. But also did 15 damage vs 10 for IS.

Clan versions of basic lasers, PPCs and autocannons made exactly the same heat but weighed 1 ton less and took up 1 fewer crit. (SRMs LRMs and MGs weighed a whopping 50% less!!)

Sure the Clan ER Medium Laser made more heat than a regular IS Medium Laser but that's comparing apples to prostitutes.

The Clan ERML vs IS ERML is a better comparison and the clan version is still superior.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 29 April 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Strum Wealh, on 29 April 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

For the 30-ton Long Tom Artillery Piece: 5-7 shots per ton.
For the 20-ton Long Tom Artillery Cannon: 5-7 shots per ton


Though, the Long Tom Cannon is too large to be mounted on 'Mechs without implementing crit-splitting & the Long Tom Artillery Piece is too large to be mounted on a 'Mech at all.
The Sniper & Thumper artillery cannons, on the other hand...

I wasn't expecting it to go this route... Nice side track!

Have you seen the rules for Snub-nose Arty and Long Toms?

Yes you did as indicated by the link I did not observe!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 April 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Gallowglas]

By all means, if all you ever want to see are Clan mechs, then give them an unmitigated advantage. People get upset about this, but most people are meta-gamers. The moment you give the Clans a distinct advantage is the day that all the IS mechs become completely obsolete and CW becomes DOA.

As it is, they are going to have to be VERY careful and VERY aggressive about balancing if they want a healthy CW implementation.

Edited by Gallowglas, 29 April 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Mawai]

What PGI has stated as their goal ... clan mechs and weaponry will have no tangible advantages over IS counterparts. The goal is different but equal.

IS and clan mechs will be dropping together on the same teams, at least to start with.

Clan mechs will not be able to adjust the engine, armor or structure type ... the base of a model will be fixed by the CT associated with the variant used.

The CT, possibly including its weapon loadout, will be fixed. Other details like jump jets or equipment like BAP could also be fixed.

Some weapons or other aspects of weapon pods could be fixed for balance purposes, Crits/tonnage/damage/duration/heat/range etc are variables that may be changed for MWO clan weapons.

Basically, I don't think it is worthwhile theorycrafting unbalanced mechs until they release the actual clan update since many of these builds may well be pre-empted by fixed weapon selection on the torso and/or some hardpoints and other weapon balance implementations.

EDIT: P.S. I don't have any opinion yet on whether MWO+clans=FAIL, Epic FAIL or WIN ... I am just waiting to see what they come up with and whether it is fun to play. One thing we can probably count on though is that clan mechs will not be the "I Win" button found in most 1:1 IS vs clan match ups ..

Edited by Mawai, 29 April 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[FupDup]

I'm expecting several Clan mechs and weapons to be average, some to be garbage, and some to be brutally OP. With tech like this there is no "sweet spot" for balancing. There are only binary opposites.