50 replies to this topic

[Kyle Wright]

So I had a crazy thought yesterday evening. In canon battletech Clans detest combined arms other than I believe Clan Hells Horses. I personally don't think Clans should be allowed to use the Arty or Air Strike consumables to meet canon. However I understand some will cry fowl. But as there weapons will be superior it my be a means to level the playing field.

What do you guys think?

[Rofl]

I seriously doubt clan canon will be observed. No physical combat means no running into mechs, accidental or otherwise. Can't gang up on a mech, either, since most clans strictly observed a 1v1 fighting stance (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen), but most of these concepts eventually died out mid- and post-invasion. I imagine arty and combined arms will be given the same treatment.

In short, there are no Role Playing Servers in MWO.

[CeeKay Boques]

Clans used combined arms, have an Aeroforce... Not really non canon...

Zellibregen is a goal between Warriors, but when Artillery is bid, its bid.

Would be a nice balancer though...

[Kyle Wright]

I forgot to modify the aerospace forces sorry. As far as artillery units though???

[3rdworld]

Technoviking, on 29 April 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Clans used combined arms, have an Aeroforce... Not really non canon...

Zellibregen is a goal between Warriors, but when Artillery is bid, its bid.

Would be a nice balancer though...

Elementals aren't mechs either.

Kyle Wright, on 29 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I forgot to modify the aerospace forces sorry. As far as artillery units though???

Naga

Not 100% about field artillery pieces, but they certainly used Arrow IV

[WarHippy]

The clans don't need anymore nerfing. Let them have artillery and airstrikes.

[Lightfoot]

Clans get Elementals instead, right?

[Rofl]

3rdworld, on 29 April 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Not 100% about field artillery pieces, but they certainly used Arrow IV

http://www.strictlyb...en-and-Batchall

internet said:

No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side

Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden

Same info found here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Clan "lore" is not going to be followed. I can assure you of this.

More info about clan warfare rules, it mentions vehicles and elementals/infantry as well:

"The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules, which deal with one-on-one combat between 'Mechs. When engaging combat vehicles and conventional infantry these rules do not apply to Clan MechWarriors; likewise Clan infantry and armor units need not follow the rules of zellbrigen when facing other opponents, including 'Mechs. Battle Armor and ProtoMechs also follow the rules of zellbrigen although for their purposes a Point constitutes a single unit, i.e. a Point of five Elementals may together duel against an enemy 'Mech."

So, yes, clans could use arty, but only if they didn't have mechs or elementals (aerospace and tanks could arty the hell out of a target, if it was bid.)

Edited by Rofl, 29 April 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Kyle Wright]

So in Zellbringen it says arty is forbidden, but this does not apply to vehicles and infatry. Guess I need little further explanation. All this Davison lore has made me ignorant and forgetful of Clan ways lol.

[CeeKay Boques]

Zellibregen is not a religion that must be followed, it is a path to honor.

Its really only for Mechwarriors.

I can bid an entire Galaxy of Aerofighters, Thumpers, Mechs, Elementals, Tanks Etc.

Only the MW need to worry about Zell, and only IF they declare, and it is a tenuous thread easily broken.

Its a goal, but for planetary Assault, the bids can go very high, and include most kinds of arms.

[CCC Dober]

Aerospace units (and airstrikes) are part of serious bids by the Clans. As such you can not expect to be safe from that. Even their ritual fights pit Mechs against them, just FYI. Use of artillery Mechs/strikes may not be seen as particularly honorable, but it is not unheard of either. Check out the Naga, if you find that hard to believe. It's an OmniMech no less.

[Aurien Titus]

Another thread that shows why MWO players should stay away from Sarna.net. Since everyone missed it, I'll go ahead and post it here

Quote

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.

I'm not sure what part of single combat it getting lost on people. Last I checked we're doing group combat. Not 1v1 matches to determine the outcome of a battle.

[Kyle Wright]

I just never heard of any of the Clans other than Hells Horses ( didn't take part) using vehicles or arty in the initial clan invasion. Always hear of elementals, aerofighters, and mechs. Never in the novels dis they mention a CO or CW or CAN tank or artillery barrage.

[El Bandito]

Never heard of any Clan bidding artillery against IS in all of my BT history. They did bid warships early on (as artillery) but thanks to Phelan, that was gone early in the campaign.

However, the current artillery strike is so good, that without it, Clans are boned in mixed matches.

PGI is going to trample yet another piece of BT lore to make this game even. My proposal for artillery change is vindicated again.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Riptor]

There are no clans in the game... only their mechs.

You can sit in one when they come out and "pretend" you are a clanner... but thats about it, since the mythical CW is still trapped somewhere in the valley of obscure % and its developers are allready asking if it would be okay to turn around and run because this stuff actually takes work.

Guess everything is going according to "the plan"

So fluff questions like this are pretty moot... even in CW they prolly wont bother implementing any limits of what you can have equipped or not kept for mechs.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I remind trashborn who they are and where they came from every time I get legged. The clans are alive and well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Technoviking, on 29 April 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Clans used combined arms, have an Aeroforce... Not really non canon...

Zellibregen is a goal between Warriors, but when Artillery is bid, its bid.

Would be a nice balancer though...

Not, strictly speaking true. They used Arrow IV, and it was relegated to second line mechwarriors and dezgra. The clans detested arty, and went out of their way to destroy it at every chance, in fact units like the Eridani Light Horse had most of their arty destroyed by Clanners, where they didn't even take prisoners, but killed arty soldiers, in cold blooded executions, to a man.

It's one reason I designed airmobile arty, like the Onager, VTOL, to make up for the lack of mobility and the vulnerability traditional tube arty faced, against the clans.

[Craig Steele]

Kyle Wright, on 29 April 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

So I had a crazy thought yesterday evening. In canon battletech Clans detest combined arms other than I believe Clan Hells Horses. I personally don't think Clans should be allowed to use the Arty or Air Strike consumables to meet canon. However I understand some will cry fowl. But as there weapons will be superior it my be a means to level the playing field.

What do you guys think?

Your understanding of canon is incorrect.

The Clans used artillery, in some Clusters it is a support star but more commonly it is a Galaxy level support in Binary formations across ALL Clans.

Clans were very much "combined arms" practitioners with Clusters being the primary evolution of this with mechs, infantry and Aerospace all combined.

Hells Horses go further in the combined arms bringing vehicles and standard infantry (not elementals) into their Cluster level organisation at the expense of more mechs.

Clans also used Special Ops (Headhunter) groups to decapitate enemy C3.

Where you (and others) might be getting confused is that the primary focus of a Clan warrior was one to one combat, it was the ultimate expression of their individual skill. It is often a reference point for Clan novels and Clan studies as it forms a significant base of their culture.

However formation combat was the norm and artillery could (and would) be deployed where the CO considered it appropriate (ie, he did not bid it away). It was certainly considered less honourable than one to one direct fire, but just like LRM's had a place on a Clan mechs, so to Clan Artillery has a place in Clan formations. There are mechs (Naga, an Omni mech) and vehicles all designed in CLan toumans for this purpose.

On a canon basis, there is no reason why Clans cannot use Artillery and Air Strikes in combat. If the CO thought it was a useful asset in that engagement, it was certainly in their formations and available for deployment.

EDIT: For those mentioning they have not seen an example of Clans deploying artillery against IS forces the Clan Wolf Sourcebook (pg 61) details the entirety of the Clan Wolfs 328th Assault Cluster was deployed on Ridderkerk against the 1st Lyran Regulars RCT.

The 328th includes an Artillery Binary of 10 Naga Omnimechs (pg 78). By the end of Tukayyid, this elite binary led by Star Captain Ortic (every pilot was classified as an elite pilot) suffered 2 deaths and 5 wounded although the source book does not specify when casualities were incurred.

Just one example FYI

Edited by Craig Steele, 29 April 2014 - 11:34 PM.

[El Bandito]

Craig Steele, on 29 April 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Your understanding of canon is incorrect. The Clans used artillery, in some Clusters it is a support star but more commonly it is a Galaxy level support in Binary formations across ALL Clans. Clans were very much "combined arms" practitioners with Clusters being the primary evolution of this with mechs, infantry and Aerospace all combined. Hells Horses go further in the combined arms bringing vehicles and standard infantry (not elementals) into their Cluster level organisation at the expense of more mechs. Clans also used Special Ops (Headhunter) groups to decapitate enemy C3. Where you (and others) might be getting confused is that the primary focus of a Clan warrior was one to one combat, it was the ultimate expression of their individual skill. It is often a reference point for Clan novels and Clan studies as it forms a significant base of their culture. However formation combat was the norm and artillery could (and would) be deployed where the CO considered it appropriate (ie, he did not bid it away). It was certainly considered less honourable than one to one direct fire, but just like LRM's had a place on a Clan mechs, so to Clan Artillery has a place in Clan formations. There are mechs (Naga, an Omni mech) and vehicles all designed in CLan toumans for this purpose. On a canon basis, there is no reason why Clans cannot use Artillery and Air Strikes in combat. If the CO thought it was a useful asset in that engagement, it was certainly in their formations and available for deployment. EDIT: For those mentioning they have not seen an example of Clans deploying artillery against IS forces the Clan Wolf Sourcebook (pg 61) details the entirety of the Clan Wolfs 328th Assault Cluster was deployed on Ridderkerk against the 1st Lyran Regulars RCT. The 328th includes an Artillery Binary of 10 Naga Omnimechs (pg 78). By the end of Tukayyid, this elite binary led by Star Captain Ortic (every pilot was classified as an elite pilot) suffered 2 deaths and 5 wounded although the source book does not specify when casualities were incurred. Just one example FYI

Your example is somewhat flawed.

1. Naga mech uses Arrow IV--a guided missile for a mech, as opposed to artillery shells. It is still mech on mech combat, albeit from extreme range.

2. Clan Wolf under Ulric (later Wolf in Exile under Phelan) can be considered an extreme exception to the rule, as they had changed their strategy to adapt to IS style of fighting--which emphasizes on as little attrition as possible on Tukayyd. None of the other invading clans used artillery in their major engagements against IS during the invasion years.

On fundamental level though, I do agree with you that artillery was widely available to Clan commanders, mostly in form of Warships orbiting above. The commanders did bid to include those warships just in case something really goes wrong. It's just that Clanners overran their IS foes so easily they never had the occasion to use artillery as contingency.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2014 - 11:52 PM.

[qki]

Kyle Wright, on 29 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I forgot to modify the aerospace forces sorry. As far as artillery units though???

Ulric Kerensky might have something to say about that...