56 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Limit any respawns to private matches only. Frankly, they can have whatever "feature" they want in there as long as no c-bills and XP are earned. They can have "no ammo", "no heat", "no ECM", "no LRMS", "no poptarts", or whatever pet peeve they currently have.

The only allowable respawn-type gameplay on the public scene should be the long ago mentioned dropship mode, if and when that does come. And this should only come under the condition that we have even larger maps and/or perfectly safe landing zones. Otherwise, we can potentially have something like this:

https://www.youtube....g2vDB8#t=00m50s

Edited by Mystere, 01 May 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Roland, on 01 May 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Quite frankly, the respawn matches in MW4 were trivially simple by comparison.... They had absolutely no tactical or strategic depth at all. They universally amounted to a single firing line down the center of the map, with people jumpsniping at each other with lasers.

Not in my experience. Plenty of back and forths, especially on the Big City/Inner City type maps. You know: "its 25 to 22, everyone go to X,Z and we'll try to catch up! Yay Ronin's down... charge!"

Was it white knuckle like NBT? Only during the last 5 minutes, like a basketball game. Was it Tactical? Yes sir, and fun too..

Roland, on 01 May 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Not at all.

We used to have matches in MW4 which were no-respawn, and lasted an HOUR in league fights.

Generally, it was enabled by much larger maps, with a deeper radar system which didn't just have a magic red dorito that popped up over any mech in your field of view.

Back in the old planetary leagues, despite having matches that were only 6v6 or 8v8, we'd have extremely complex battles which often involved multiple engagements/disengagements throughout the match.

Respawn isn't really required for that at all.

Right? Big maps are what facilitated this. You could have some light gauss exchanges, then Lead says "I don't want to fight here, lets get down to Gamma and see if they follow so we can engage with our LBX Cauldron Borns."

Scouts could actually scout, following lances for virtual miles, relaying back where the enemy was, because the map was so big they could get lost at times...

and settings like no radar... Pea Soup Fog...

[Vlad Ward]

One death equals more 12-0 games.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Roland, on 01 May 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

...with a deeper radar system which didn't just have a magic red dorito that popped up over any mech in your field of view.

The dorito you speak of lessens the awareness to actually acquire targets and is an abomination to FPS games in my opinion. There needs to be a hardcore mode that removes the dorito and you know has some class warfare giving lights more prowess needing them to be close enough to acquire a target for LRMs and fire supports teammates.

BFs hardcore mode is how BF should be played. Thank goodness Dice had the foresight to have that option.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 01 May 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 01 May 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

You have luck and risk confused. 12v12 is effectively luck based. Because the team that gets the most idiots is more likely to lose than the team that gets the least idiots. Matchmaker now decides which team wins most of the time... and since one person cant really make a difference in 12v12, player skill factors in very little. Compare that to 8v8 where one good player could still win the game singlehandedly for their team. 12v12 just doesnt work with one death IMO, because the essence of skill is lost: 8v8 was superior.


Yes but the players that dont think ruin the game for everyone else. All it takes is 1-2 bad players getting killed at a pivotal moment to allow the other team to win by avalanche. Or if you have disconnects or afks its the same problem.


me too. I want the option for a respawn gamemode (for 12v12) and the option to do 4v4 and 8v8 fights (for one death). The less players you have on your team, the more skill matters.


It all depends on the gamemode and how respawn is handled. You can implement respawn so that dying is a penalty (ticket system/limited lives). You can also implement gamemodes that have objectives which directly discourage zerging (spread out objectives to split teams up).

Now, I disagree with this thought...here is why...

Yes, a number of twits on your team can cause you to have a disparity...however, there are some matches where my trothkin and I drop in a 4 man, and have 9-12 kills between us.

So, while 1 pilot may not make a massive difference (even though some of my clan mates would argue you are wrong on that point entirely), playing a in a group of 4 can literally be a game changer in some instances.

Now, this begs the question, what about the matches where someone puts up 1400+ damage and racks up 6-10 kills? Is that single pilot not a game changing caliber of pilot, even against 12? Is it far less common now? Sure...is it unheard of entirely? No.

It is just far more rare for one person to have that impact in a game with 24 players in a match as opposed to cutting that number by 33%.

[Bhael Fire]

I would have left this game back in closed beta if it were a generic spawn-fest twitch shooter like Hawken.

F@#k that noise, Jack.

[AntharPrime]

I've seen teams come back from a 6 mech disadvantage in 12 vs 12 so I am a firm believer that individual players make the difference despite having a noob heavy team. As for risk and luck, I think that they are not mutually exclusive, I have had a few matches where I was scouting with my Commando only to turn a corner to get a face full of AC40 and go down in the first minute of a match.

Teamwork can also be spontaneous in pug drops too. I remember a match recently where I was grinding cbills for my son's Blackjack and a Jenner on my team caught the rear armour on a Banshee in the tunnel on Crimson Straight. I dropped down from the upper deck of the docks when I noticed the Banshee turning around and started plugging AC2 rounds into his back while the Jenner ran off and ducked behind cover when the Banshee turned towards me as the Jenner snuck back behind him to fire again. We double teamed that Banshee and my Jenner buddy got the kill and it all went down in about 20 seconds.

I wouldn't want to see an unlimited respawn mode in MWO. I do like the idea of the Dropship mode. I think it would be fun for bigger maps where there would be different mission objectives that would require having different mechs in your launch bays. If I want to have unlimited respawns, I go and play Planetside or Hawken, I feel that this makes MWO stand out in a sea of the same type of FPS games out there.

I have been pugging all this time but intend to join a team as soon as we see benefits in CW. I suspected it would take a while to get set up and I didn't want to commit to a team only to have 90% of the players abandon the game from impatience. CW would make an nice Christmas present.

[CeeKay Boques]

What's funny is, the MWO team really wants the BFers and the CoD players...

You'd think that Respawn would have been in before 3rd person...

[BARBAR0SSA]

Respawn all the way wth guys.

You can't do the battles of Tukayyid if it's a 1 death and game over, I had visions of a galaxy of clanners vs com guards. CW should be something like that. Sure it's 12 v 12 but you get limited RESPAWNS,

I mean dropship with 3 respawns sounds amazing, not sure why so many people are against that mode, put it in and watch your 12v12 1 life just vanish I bet. Bring 4 fully outfitted mechs in to battle and fight, sounds pretty awesome to me



Dropship mode that was outlined=Respawn.

Edited by shad0w4life, 01 May 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[AntharPrime]

Technoviking, on 01 May 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

What's funny is, the MWO team really wants the BFers and the CoD players...

You'd think that Respawn would have been in before 3rd person...

I would welcome old BF2 players to the game, BF3 and BF4 don't quite feel the same for some odd reason, possibly because of all the premium content that separates the community in half. I remember a server from BF2 and BF2142 that had 128 players, now that was large scale combat.

Vlad Ward, on 01 May 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

One death equals more 12-0 games.

Once PGI figures out how to tweak the matchmaker properly, you will see that less often. I'm not sure exactly how long it will take to tweak but odds are eventually they will get it.

Edited by AntharPrime, 01 May 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[Mystere]

shad0w4life, on 01 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

You can't do the battles of Tukayyid if it's a 1 death and game over, I had visions of a galaxy of clanners vs com guards. CW should be something like that. Sure it's 12 v 12 but you get limited RESPAWNS,

Clan galaxies vs. IS regiments, that would be awesome. Too bad it's only going to be a fantasy as far as MWO is concerned.

[Roland]

Technoviking, on 01 May 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Not in my experience. Plenty of back and forths, especially on the Big City/Inner City type maps. You know: "its 25 to 22, everyone go to X,Z and we'll try to catch up! Yay Ronin's down... charge!"

Was it white knuckle like NBT? Only during the last 5 minutes, like a basketball game. Was it Tactical? Yes sir, and fun too..

Well, perhaps it was simply a different kind of tactical.

What made it simpler to me, was that the respawn mechanism effectively precluded complex maneuvering. Indeed, it ended up having a very similar effect to the bases in Assault, in that it removed the reward for successful flanks.

With respawn in MW4, you couldn't really flank your enemy, because even if doing so allowed you to crush their force, they then respawned and were BEHIND you, automatically surrounding your force with their fresh respawned mechs and their remaining mechs that hadn't died yet.

So respawn ended up turning a tactical advantage into a tactical disadvantage, and there wasn't anything you could do about it.. which is why you never saw the same kind of complex maneuvers in the respawn games.. Both forces would stay between their respawn point and the enemy force... generally along a big line in the middle of the map.

[Vlad Ward]

AntharPrime, on 01 May 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Once PGI figures out how to tweak the matchmaker properly, you will see that less often. I'm not sure exactly how long it will take to tweak but odds are eventually they will get it.

Except no, because it's not a matchmaker problem. It's a fact of life when you're dealing with no respawn games.

No respawns means the first person that dies leaves their team fighting 11v12. That disadvantaged team is then more likely to lose a second player, and put them at 10v12 - an even bigger disadvantage.

Call it momentum, call it geometrically increasing difficulty, increasing returns, whatever you want. You can't have clean, "even" 12-11 fights all the time and no respawns. That's not a thing.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 01 May 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[AntharPrime]

Vlad Ward, on 01 May 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Except no, because it's not a matchmaker problem. It's a fact of life when you're dealing with no respawn games.

No respawns means the first person that dies leaves their team fighting 11v12. That disadvantaged team is then more likely to lose a second player, and put them at 10v12 - an even bigger disadvantage.

Call it momentum, call it geometrically increasing difficulty, increasing returns, whatever you want. You can't have clean, "even" 12-11 fights all the time and no respawns. That's not a thing.

See, my experience has been slightly different. I've seen that the team that looses the first mech isn't always the team guaranteed to loose the match. Often while the enemy has managed to down that one mech they have been receiving a lot of damage from the enemy. While they do have the mech advantage, they lost half of their team's armor and make easy prey for their enemy. This is the tactic I usually take, I try to preserve armor on my mech by plugging a volley into an enemy mech then repositioning while they waist their ammo on the hillside. Many players make the mistake of trying to get the kill and take too many shots. The best deal closers are medium and light mechs, once the heavies and assaults peel away the armor, any mech is just a scrap heap ready to happen when the fast lights and mediums come out and hit them exactly where they are hurting because they were watching the big guns from behind cover.

[Vlad Ward]

AntharPrime, on 01 May 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

See, my experience has been slightly different. I've seen that the team that looses the first mech isn't always the team guaranteed to loose the match. Often while the enemy has managed to down that one mech they have been receiving a lot of damage from the enemy. While they do have the mech advantage, they lost half of their team's armor and make easy prey for their enemy. This is the tactic I usually take, I try to preserve armor on my mech by plugging a volley into an enemy mech then repositioning while they waist their ammo on the hillside. Many players make the mistake of trying to get the kill and take too many shots. The best deal closers are medium and light mechs, once the heavies and assaults peel away the armor, any mech is just a scrap heap ready to happen when the fast lights and mediums come out and hit them exactly where they are hurting because they were watching the big guns from behind cover.

It's not a matter of experience. It's not a matter of tactics. It's a matter of numbers. Missing armor or not, once your team is down a couple of Mechs, it's 12 guys with guns against 10. Can a team occasionally pull up from that sort of disadvantage? Sure. If they're a better team than the other guys.

Assuming a perfectly balanced matchmaker, the first team to lose a Mech will always lose.

[Khobai]

Quote

One death equals more 12-0 games.

yes and no. its a combination of 12v12 and one death that results in the 12-0 games.

8v8 never had that problem because a really skilled pilot could still beat the odds and win the game for their team.

[Daekar]

Drop ship mode: yes
Unlimited respawns: no
Giant maps where scouting means something and matches take 30 minutes with multiple engagements: hell yes, with increased rewards to keep C-bill/minute the same.

[Asmudius Heng]

I would love a dropship mode with limited lives but only if done well with capturable points so you could drop in at multiple points on the map so taking different chassis to suit the evolving needs of the battle was a tactical choice.

I fear a simplistic limited respawn system will be done though and it will just kinda suck.

Regular no respawn is great ... to those saying you lose if you have a few sucktastic team mates .....the same is true of respawn guys ...

[3rdworld]

Fut, on 01 May 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

If they added any sort of respawn to MWO, things would degenerate into a *********** of annoying Zerg-Rush type tactics - where people simply charge in and inflict as much damage as possible before getting downed, respawing and repeating.

And this is drastically different than the current game how exactly?

[ICEFANG13]

I have very mixed feelings about respawn in this game. I guess firstly it would be nice if there was an actual game mode that was thought inducing before it would even need to be considered. In this deathmatch (and lets not kid ourselves, there is not enough objectives to make it far off deathmatch enough consistently), respawns would be just terrible, but then again, perhaps it could work better if there was a better more tactical game mode.

Still if that dropship mode comes out, I'll have to buy 3 more Jenner-Ds.