51 replies to this topic

[Ningyo]

Right now DHS are essentially always better than SHS, and by an enormous margin.

I would strongly suggest making all built into engine Heat sinks be single and make DHS outside of engine give 2 heat dissipation instead of 1.4

This would be a very simple change from the programming end, and while not as good as some full heat scale reworks it should help balance the game in a lot of ways

# of heatsinks : Present method : my suggested method
10 engine . . . . . . : 10/20 : 10/10 (SHS/DHS heat dissipation)
10 eng + 5 extra . : 15/27 : 15/20
10 eng + 10 extra : 20/34 : 20/30
10 eng + 14 extra : 24/40 : 24/38 (12-14 extra DHS is max that can fit on most mechs)

The effect of this should still give DHS an advantage over SHS in most cases but only 80% instead of the present 99.9%, and the advantage will usually be significant but smaller.

Also it will make players have to choose do they really want to fill every single weapon slot and run into constant heat issues or drop a couple for more heat sinks.

This will probably also raise time to kill by a bit which can often make matches more fun, and will make Stock mechs slightly more viable or at least less completely outclassed.


So what do people think?

[Durant Carlyle]

Or, don't fix what doesn't need fixing.

Double Heat Sinks always have been a straight-up upgrade. No balancing required.

The heat system itself is what needs fixing.

Single Heat Sinks should dissipate 1.0 heat per 10 seconds.
Double Heat Sinks should dissipate 2.0 heat per 10 seconds.
Heat Sinks should NOT affect Heat Capacity at all.
All 'Mechs should have a base Heat Capacity of 30 (modified by quirks).

Penalties should be introduced at a certain percentage of Heat Capacity (75% maybe).
-- Weapon cooldowns increase (50%).
-- 'Mech speed decrease (50%).
-- Reticle shake, similar to that while jump jetting.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 04 May 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[Scratx]

In other words, nerf DHS even harder than they already are.

Are you barmy, OP? They don't need nerfing. It's SHS that royally suck.

Even more hilariously, you're suggesting making the DHS outside the engine to be the better ones. There's so many levels of wrong there.

If you really want to make SHS not suck so bad (let's admit it, DHS is by design a straight upgrade), just make engine-mounted SHS give 1.5 heat dissipation and call it a day. There, now every mech pretty much has 5 more effective SHS if they haven't been upgraded to DHS. That should make stock mechs not suck so much.

Of course, I suggested this several months ago. *shrugs*

[Khobai]

Quote

All 'Mechs should have a base Heat Capacity of 30 (modified by quirks).

Penalties should be introduced at a certain percentage of Heat Capacity (75% maybe).
-- Weapon cooldowns increase (50%).
-- 'Mech speed decrease (50%).
-- Reticle shake, similar to that while jump jetting.

This wont work. You cant have a cap of 30 AND penalties. Because every mech would constantly be suffering penalties.

[RedAnxiety]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Or, don't fix what doesn't need fixing.

Double Heat Sinks always have been a straight-up upgrade. No balancing required.

The heat system itself is what needs fixing.

Single Heat Sinks should dissipate 1.0 heat per 10 seconds.
Double Heat Sinks should dissipate 2.0 heat per 10 seconds.
Heat Sinks should NOT affect Heat Capacity at all.
All 'Mechs should have a base Heat Capacity of 30 (modified by quirks).

Penalties should be introduced at a certain percentage of Heat Capacity (75% maybe).
-- Weapon cooldowns increase (50%).
-- 'Mech speed decrease (50%).
-- Reticle shake, similar to that while jump jetting.

I assume ditching ghost heat is apart of this idea

[Barantor]

SHS dont' suck, it's just that with the customization options, it is kinda dumb not to take DHS with the way heat works at the moment.

SHS as the heat works right now can't handle the weapon spam that the MWO meta requires.

[Durant Carlyle]

Khobai, on 04 May 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

This wont work. You cant have a cap of 30 AND penalties. Because every mech would constantly be suffering penalties.

Barantor, on 04 May 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

the weapon spam that the MWO meta requires.

Then maybe people would stop doing the AlphaWarrior Online thing and start controlling their fire. You know, being smart about it ... thinking about it, instead of simply hitting all weapon groups at once.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 04 May 2014 - 03:24 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

In order to get SHS v DHS an actual decision, the entire heat system needs to be reworked.

[Mcgral18]

As it stands, TT SHS are better than MWO DHS. Weapons fire 3 times as fast, but dissipation was nerfed for DHS, but SHS are still taking 3 times as much heat.

So, we can't take TT stats if you want balance. But it's too late for that.

Making SHS add to the heat capacity (as all HS do now) while making DHS full 2,0 dissipation but not increase the capacity would make them different, while still better. It gives niche builds that work better with SHS, high heat alpha but worse off in a brawl than DHS.

Otherwise, a redesigned heat system is required.

[Scratx]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Then maybe people would stop doing the AlphaWarrior Online thing and start controlling their fire. You know, being smart about it ... thinking about it, instead of simply hitting all weapon groups at once.

I once tried running a Locust with single heat sinks.

You know, with missiles. (Not sure exact build, might've been SRMs, might've been streaks)

......

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I just needed one match in Terra Therma where I barely could cool down at all to give up on using singles.

Seriously, SHS-using mechs atm are nothing more than kills-for-the-enemy-team-waiting-to-happen.

[Barantor]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Then maybe people would stop doing the AlphaWarrior Online thing and start controlling their fire. You know, being smart about it ... thinking about it, instead of simply hitting all weapon groups at once.

Pinpoint damage is the problem at that point, then you run into why the armor is so high.....

Then the fact you can slam a ppc in where a small laser was....

Meh, it is a whole system that feeds on itself for some sort of meta game that isn't a lot like battletech at all but uses all the names.

[Durant Carlyle]

Scratx, on 04 May 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

I just needed one match in Terra Therma where I barely could cool down at all to give up on using singles.

Seriously, SHS-using mechs atm are nothing more than kills-for-the-enemy-team-waiting-to-happen.

So you had trouble on the hottest map in the game? Like is supposed to happen?

I've run MissileLocusts with singles before, and other than Terrible Therma they were fine.

And it wouldn't be as bad as you think with EVERYONE on the map being so limited.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 04 May 2014 - 03:47 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Then maybe people would stop doing the AlphaWarrior Online thing and start controlling their fire. You know, being smart about it ... thinking about it, instead of simply hitting all weapon groups at once.

Have you looked at weapon heat values? Look at them, look at the cooldowns associated, and please think about your idea again. It's horrid.

[FupDup]

Adiuvo, on 04 May 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Have you looked at weapon heat values? Look at them, look at the cooldowns associated, and please think about your idea again. It's horrid.

As a practical example of this, firing a single ERPPC once would jack you up to 50% heat instantly. No matter how many heatsinks you had.


Not @ Adiuvo:
The idea of reducing the capacity is an okay idea, but having the dissipation based on 10-second Tabletop turns (we're playing a real-time game!) is a bad idea and proponents of it should feel bad. For low capacity to work, dissipation needs to be jacked way up (no less than 50% of a boost).

Having low capacity and low dissipation simultaneously would utterly cripple anything equipping energy weapons larger than an MLas or MPLas, used in quantities of greater than 3.

Edited by FupDup, 04 May 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Lostdragon]

Khobai, on 04 May 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

This wont work. You cant have a cap of 30 AND penalties. Because every mech would constantly be suffering penalties.

You could, but you'd have to dissipate heat much, much faster than it dissipates now.

[Davers]

I know some guys running Banshees with 40+ SHSs. I guess there are some edge cases where they are better than DHS.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Then maybe people would stop doing the AlphaWarrior Online thing and start controlling their fire. You know, being smart about it ... thinking about it, instead of simply hitting all weapon groups at once.

Ha...HAHAHA...

You...you want people to actually show restraint in an online game? What are you 12?

No seriously, that was the kind of crap I was trying to advocate back when I was 12... I learned very quickly that. "The internet is full of buttholes." And no one plays by the rules you want to play by unless you get a group together to play by those rules.

No one's going to play by some arbatrary ruleset that's not enforced by the gameplay itself. and even when it IS enforced, people are going to try their damndest to break the system because it'll give them an edge.

Online players are douches... it's just the nature of online gaming... you adapt, overcome and continue on. or you move on.

At this point i don't even care. Sure I get frustrated at the high FLD builds and jumpsnipers... but it's all possible within the bounds of the current system, if I get too upset, I can turn the game off and come back later.

Of course now there's private matches... so you can enforce whatever arbatrary ruleset you wish now.

[Durant Carlyle]

I'm advocating changing the heat system to make THOSE the rules, because they more closely resemble BattleTech, not use an arbitrary rule set I came up with.

You want to play AlphaWarrior Online with the rules I stated? Go ahead. You'll just blow yourself up without doing anything to the enemy.

Eventually, you'll learn NOT to do that, because then you can live long enough to actually kill the enemy.

[Deathlike]

Barantor, on 04 May 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

SHS dont' suck, it's just that with the customization options, it is kinda dumb not to take DHS with the way heat works at the moment.

Have you ever run a SHS build in Mordor?

I have run the classic Commando-2D build (with SHS) on Mordor. You would learn that DHS is "teh precious".

Edited by Deathlike, 04 May 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Ningyo]

OK to clear up a couple things.

In TT heat is dissipated by heatsinks during the same 10 second turn you fire your weapons BEFORE heat penalties are calculated. The bonus to heat threshold simulates this in a real time game. So reducing threshold to a flat 30 would be very very different than TT rules.

Secondly I agree completely with people saying there should be a complete heat system overhaul including penalties and changes to how heatsinks work. HOWEVER PGI has over the past year or more of completely ignoring every good idea out there made it rather clear they do not plan to make any major changes. Hence this really really simple change they could make in under 30 mins of an interns time I am suggesting.