51 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

FupDup, on 04 May 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

For low capacity to work, dissipation needs to be jacked way up (no less than 50% of a boost).

1.4/2+1.4 ~= 2.0 .

Jade Kitsune, on 04 May 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

You...you want people to actually show restraint in an online game? What are you 12?

If he was 12 he wouldn't be talking about restraint, which really makes me question your age.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 04 May 2014 - 09:59 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

FupDup, on 04 May 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

As a practical example of this, firing a single ERPPC once would jack you up to 50% heat instantly. No matter how many heatsinks you had.


Not @ Adiuvo:
The idea of reducing the capacity is an okay idea, but having the dissipation based on 10-second Tabletop turns (we're playing a real-time game!) is a bad idea and proponents of it should feel bad. For low capacity to work, dissipation needs to be jacked way up (no less than 50% of a boost).

Having low capacity and low dissipation simultaneously would utterly cripple anything equipping energy weapons larger than an MLas or MPLas, used in quantities of greater than 3.

You can have a 30 point heat scale without increased dissipation and still have it workable. Remember the key factor is the 10 second turn in TT.

Lostdragon, on 04 May 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

You could, but you'd have to dissipate heat much, much faster than it dissipates now.

No, a better solution is a 30 point heat scale and not the instantaneous application of heat we have now. Make it so the heat gets applied over the duration of the recycle time; e.g. a PPC on a 4 second recycle increases your heat by 2.5 per second. With a stock mech and SHS that is a net gain of 1.5 heat per second factoring the 1 heat per second dissipation rate, or a total of 6 heat when it's ready to fire again.

Doing this method might even make the dissipation rates *too high* and/or require an even lower cap of ~20 otherwise 4-5PPC boating becomes usable again. But still a far simpler solution than ghost heat and you'll always know *exactly* what your heat level will be after firing with some very simple math. Adjustments are made with simple recycle time changes for weapon balance. Want a weapon to run hotter - shorter recycle; cooler is a longer recycle.

it also makes SHS work again in some builds. The biggest gains from DHS are not in the dissipation rate, it's the 20+% increase in the maximum heat threshold that makes DHS mandatory.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 04 May 2014 - 10:26 PM.

[kapusta11]

Yeah, nerf energy weapons even more because they suck not hard enough. Because 2 times reduced rate of fire while near the heat cap waiting for just a little bit more heat to dissipate so you can fire again is not enough penalty. Because 2.5 reduced recycle times on all weapons but with stock dissipation is totally fine.

[Ningyo]

@ Egoslayer yes that would work but no better than having a higher threshold and would be more confusing than ghost heat.

[BOWMANGR]

People in this thread believe that there is an issue regarding the Heatsinks. Well let me blow your mind right here.

What if I told you that Heatsinks work EXACTLY as intended from a Free to Play game perspective. The irony is that they are sinks alright but not HEAT sinks. They are CBill sinks to let the economy of the game work as any other F2P economy out there namely forcing you to grind to get the DHS upgrade or paying money to get rid of the grind.

From PGI's perspective there is NOTHING to fix regarding Heatsinks. They are working perfectly as they want them to work.

[Kmieciu]

BOWMANGR, on 04 May 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

People in this thread believe that there is an issue regarding the Heatsinks. Well let me blow your mind right here.

What if I told you that Heatsinks work EXACTLY as intended from a Free to Play game perspective. The irony is that they are sinks alright but not HEAT sinks. They are CBill sinks to let the economy of the game work as any other F2P economy out there namely forcing you to grind to get the DHS upgrade or paying money to get rid of the grind.

From PGI's perspective there is NOTHING to fix regarding Heatsinks. They are working perfectly as they want them to work.

This.

I realize that some of you just want to vent your frustrations on these forums. Go ahead, that's what they are for. But be sure, that as long as MWO is a F2P game, the DHS will be a straight upgrade over SHS.

The question is, will clan DHS follow the same rules as IS DHS? Because you'll be able to stuff way more DHS into those clan mechs...

Edited by Kmieciu, 05 May 2014 - 12:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Or, don't fix what doesn't need fixing.

Double Heat Sinks always have been a straight-up upgrade. No balancing required.

The heat system itself is what needs fixing.

Single Heat Sinks should dissipate 1.0 heat per 10 seconds.
Double Heat Sinks should dissipate 2.0 heat per 10 seconds.
Heat Sinks should NOT affect Heat Capacity at all.
All 'Mechs should have a base Heat Capacity of 30 (modified by quirks).

Penalties should be introduced at a certain percentage of Heat Capacity (75% maybe).
-- Weapon cooldowns increase (50%).
-- 'Mech speed decrease (50%).
-- Reticle shake, similar to that while jump jetting.

You're on the right track, but as we have 2.5 times the firing rate Dissipation should be 1.0 every 5 seconds for sinks and 2.0 every 5 seconds for Dubbs. Just a little behind the fire rate.

[Fiona Marshe]

As said, DHS are an exponential upgrade, not a linear upgrade due to the way the heat system works.

Example (not accurate):
20 SHS = 10 PPC alpha's before shutdown
20 DHS = 40 PPC alpha's before shutdown

Until they fix the heat scale, tinkering with heatsinks is going to do nothing productive.

[aniviron]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 May 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm advocating changing the heat system to make THOSE the rules, because they more closely resemble BattleTech, not use an arbitrary rule set I came up with.

You want to play AlphaWarrior Online with the rules I stated? Go ahead. You'll just blow yourself up without doing anything to the enemy.

Eventually, you'll learn NOT to do that, because then you can live long enough to actually kill the enemy.

A hard heat cap of 30 plus heat penalties will NOT fix alpha strikes. All it will do is drive even more people to AC5/AC20/dual gauss builds. Since your founder's tag implies you were around in closed beta, I'll just go ahead and remind you of when the K2 was far and away the best mech in the game thanks to those ballistic mounts; well, now we have mechs that can do that with high-mounted, arm-aimed weapons.

[Ningyo]

in terms of making them a money sink you still want them both to have advantages, though you want the DHS to be better in most cases, that way players that have plenty of cash might switch back and forth between using and not using them for different loadouts, thus buying them multiple times per mech. Having them be buy once per mech is not near as effective of a moneysink.

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 04 May 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I know some guys running Banshees with 40+ SHSs. I guess there are some edge cases where they are better than DHS.

I'd be interested to seeing a build, after I saw your post I spent some time in the mechlab and really couldn't find anything I found optimal that relied on 40 tons and 40 critical slots of SHS.

BOWMANGR, on 04 May 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

People in this thread believe that there is an issue regarding the Heatsinks. Well let me blow your mind right here.

What if I told you that Heatsinks work EXACTLY as intended from a Free to Play game perspective. The irony is that they are sinks alright but not HEAT sinks. They are CBill sinks to let the economy of the game work as any other F2P economy out there namely forcing you to grind to get the DHS upgrade or paying money to get rid of the grind.

From PGI's perspective there is NOTHING to fix regarding Heatsinks. They are working perfectly as they want them to work.

Pretty much this.


Also to be honest, I'm OK with DHS being a straight upgrade.

What exactly would the large value be to gameplay to have SHS be a slightly weaker option as opposed to a weaker option?


I think the impact of nerfing DHS would just force me to run ballistic mech's almost exclusively. The game does not need this.

[Dawnstealer]

I'd rather see more maps, Community Warfare, the Zeus, the Hatchetman, and the King Crab first.

[Davers]

Ultimatum X, on 05 May 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

I'd be interested to seeing a build, after I saw your post I spent some time in the mechlab and really couldn't find anything I found optimal that relied on 40 tons and 40 critical slots of SHS.

I think it was a medium laser boat. I never said it was an 'optimal' build.

[Ningyo]

yeah the banshee build is really just 8 ML, 300 std engine, 47 SHS, max armor. Its slow and short range but it does get noticeably better heat than DHS

[MeiSooHaityu]

DHS is an upgrade from SHS and not designed to be a heat efficency vs crit space balancing act.

Overall, I think it is fine the way it is.

If there was one thing I would change, it is mechs with SHS in the legs should get a far better cooling bonus for standing in water. I am talking a boost to heat efficency of about 2.5x.

It would add a nice bonus to running SHS heatsinks in the legs. If that mech is out of water though, it goes back to 1x.

That would probably be the only change I would like them to try.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 May 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

You're on the right track, but as we have 2.5 times the firing rate Dissipation should be 1.0 every 5 seconds for sinks and 2.0 every 5 seconds for Dubbs. Just a little behind the fire rate.

My WubShee....would Wub this.


But seriously...I can't run an energy boat with 23 DHS. That makes me sad.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 05 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

My WubShee....would Wub this.


But seriously...I can't run an energy boat with 23 DHS. That makes me sad.

Well, there are a few options:

4x ER LLAS: 24 DHS
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...71d4c22f245d27f


2x LPL, 3x MPL: 23 DHS
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c4bcd19f559079

4x LPL: 23 DHS
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...31234462adc81b1


The bottom two are theory crafting, I've played the 4x ER LLAS and it's managable - you just can't let loose constant alphas. So a few weapon groups with chain fire and one with alpha.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 May 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 05 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

But seriously...I can't run an energy boat with 23 DHS. That makes me sad.

Well, I did go extreme once with a 22? DHS Awesome-9M with PPCs+Meds.

Felt underwhelmed quite a bit...

It looked something like this:
AWS-9M

Edited by Deathlike, 05 May 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 05 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

But seriously...I can't run an energy boat with 23 DHS. That makes me sad.

You can actually slowly overheat a mech with 20 DHS with just 6 Small Lasers. I'm not even kidding you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 05 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

My WubShee....would Wub this.


But seriously...I can't run an energy boat with 23 DHS. That makes me sad.

There are some that wouldn't, but I hear you. A Mech with a ERPPC and 10 Dubbs should be cool running!

FupDup, on 05 May 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

You can actually slowly overheat a mech with 20 DHS with just 6 Small Lasers. I'm not even kidding you.

I don't like this, but i do like you shared this insanity.