The Clan Pedant in me requires me to inform you that Elementals actually attach to the exterior of Clan Omnimechs by means of special recharging sockets adapted for their battle claws.
Makes some sense, as otherwise it's quite impossible to store them inside.
yeah, a clan mech carrying elementals has three clinging to its back and one on either side of the front torso. the battlesuits dropping off to engage would be like Fleas jumping off a dog.. heavily armored, laser and missile equipped fleas of death...
Also, nice "hint" that you won't be able to group fire the ERPPCs. As of right now the IS ERPPCs are so hot using more than one is almost suicide, even when cycle firing. I'm hoping the Warhawks heatsinks will keep the prime from shutting down in four shots, otherwise this mech is DOA.
Heat management, mate?
At the moment the maximum possible threshold on Forest Colony is 88.56 (that's 58.56 more than mechs should have) for Inner Sphere. On Frozen City: 110.7 threshold. (11 PPCs fired at once for 110 damage without ghost heat! Just 1 PPC fired every 2 seconds for a total of 10 seconds (total of 6 PPCs fired in a 10 second period; remember to count the first PPC at 0 seconds.) would shut you down in tabletop; can't even shutdown like that in MWO with 15 SHS let alone 10 engine DHS).
Clans on the other hand, so far with some custom building can go in excess of 96.96 and on frozen city 121.2, which is 8 Clan ER PPCs, which is 120 damage, assuming nothing changes about DHS rules in MWO.
I think these things are pretty far from DoA.
That's 38 SHS, which represents between 68 (no unlocks), 81.6(elites), or 85(no unlocks + map) or 102 (elites + map) thresholds. O.o; Have fun!
I wish the cockpit windshield had a reverse angle like on the miniature models and in the TROs, that's my big complaint about the model. That and the stubby toes. I thought they were supposed to be a little longer than that I hope it's the FOV settings they used for taking the screen shots, otherwise the Dire Wolf will also have stubby toes (they share the same leg assemblies since they're closely related).
I would've preferred the missile launcher to be shoulder-mounted, it makes more sense to me. But I understand that with the way arm weapons are aimed in this game why the artists chose this route.
Although I agree the underarm LRM is not looking good, too tacked on IMO. The PPC should both be on the 'front' of the arm, and the lrm on the side for better aethestics.
Although I do know mechs aren't about aesthetics, would it kill to consider?
At the moment the maximum possible threshold on Forest Colony is 88.56 (that's 58.56 more than mechs should have) for Inner Sphere. On Frozen City: 110.7 threshold. (11 PPCs fired at once for 110 damage without ghost heat! Just 1 PPC fired every 2 seconds for a total of 10 seconds (total of 6 PPCs fired in a 10 second period; remember to count the first PPC at 0 seconds.) would shut you down in tabletop; can't even shutdown like that in MWO with 15 SHS let alone 10 engine DHS).
Clans on the other hand, so far with some custom building can go in excess of 96.96 and on frozen city 121.2, which is 8 Clan ER PPCs, which is 120 damage.
I think these things are pretty far from DoA.
That's 38 SHS, which represents between 68 (no unlocks), 81.6(elites), or 85(no unlocks + map) or 102 (elites + map) thresholds. O.o; Have fun!
While I'm certainly not going to call the Warhawk or anything else DOA, it's more than a bit disingenuous to talk about the huge heat capacity and completely ignore the incredibly gimped dissipation rate that we have in this game. Have you tried running an Awesome with four ER PPCs since the heat was uppped to canon levels again? Sure, it's possible, but it's not a good idea. It's also pretty disingenuous to talk about the maximum possible heat threshold and then say that you also have room for 11 PPCs in that mech too. If your heat threshold is that high, you are going to have around a maximum of one PPC.
If you're running four PPCs, your maximum possible capacity in a Stalker is 64, which means on Forest colony, you can shoot exactly once, if you completely ignore ghost heat, as you have, you can shoot exactly once if you're not moving too quickly. If you enable ghost heat, you're looking at an instant shutdown and internal damage from 86 heat, which will take 18 seconds to cool off with the maximum possible number of double heatsinks. Even if you fire in 2+2 to bypass ghost heat, that still going to take 11 seconds to cool off.
The sort of numbers you're theorycrafting right now are the same sort of impossible situations that lead to Paul nerfing the AC2. "What if it never ran out of ammo? And you didn't need to worry about heat? And you had six of them? And your opponent didn't take advantage of your lack of torso twist?" You're going on about imaginary superbuilds that can't exist with maxed theoretical heatsinks that can't mount any weapons, completely ignoring dissipation and ghost heat. The Warhawk probably won't be DOA, but I don't think it's going to be a good mech at all if anyone plans on running it stock. Even modified, there's no real place for energy boats in MWO. Yes, that damage is great at the 0 second mark, but you can't just ignore the heat buildup.
If you're running four PPCs, your maximum possible capacity in a Stalker is 64, which means on Forest colony, you can shoot exactly once, if you completely ignore ghost heat, as you have, you can shoot exactly once if you're not moving too quickly. If you enable ghost heat, you're looking at an instant shutdown and internal damage from 86 heat, which will take 18 seconds to cool off with the maximum possible number of double heatsinks. Even if you fire in 2+2 to bypass ghost heat, that still going to take 11 seconds to cool off.
Psst. This build has 20 DHS. To be fair, without unlocks it wields 64 threshold and a cooling rate of 3.4/sec.
However it wields after unlocks:
Cooling Rate : 3.91 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 76.8
on forest colony
On Forest colony snow, it wields:
Cooling Rate : 4.89 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 96
But to slap it in Forest Colony Snow is unfair.
If you're so interested..
Lets just look at the cooling rate of 20 DHS in Tabletop.
20 * 2 / 10.
4.0/sec cooling.
You were talking about gimped, earlier?
20 DHS in MWO on forest colony (heat neutral map; no effects). 3.91/sec cooling.
20 DHS in TT without a map. 4.0/sec cooling.
The DHS is "gimped" by 0.09 on a heat neutral map. That's with ALL 20 MWO DHS; that's all you're gimped, is 0.09 out of the total. You're missing out on "0.0045" cooling per second per DHS.
Do you know how insignificant that is?
There's even combinations between 16 and 18 DHS where you have "0.21" DHS instead of 0.2 as in tabletop.
And then you add the threshold increases, and we've essentially got QHS instead of DHS.
Feel free to play with this.
---------
To add: Warning: Math a plenty!
Spoiler
With ghost heat, I can fire 3 standard PPCs 3 times in a row before I shutdown. Ghost heat adds an addition 12.6 heat per shot (essentially 4 PPCs), that's the heat of 4 PPCs + 2.6 additional heat each firing, every 4 seconds from 0 seconds, to 4 seconds, to 8 seconds. In total I've generated 42.6 heat each time with 3 intervals. That's 127.8 heat generated total. 8 seconds of cooling in tabletop from 20 DHS would be 4.0 per second, 16 heat cooled per interval so a total of 32 cooled. Which would leave me at 95.8 heat left over when I finally shut down and have to wait a while to cool. (In tabletop I'd generate 30 heat each time, total of 90, and cool 32 leaving me at 58).
Except we also have MWO's cooling rate, so we wind up with: 127.8 generated, 31.28 cooled for 96.52 left over. I squeezed in, within 8 seconds, 9 PPCs.
In tabletop, I'd shutdown at 6 PPCs.
20 DHS and 30 threshold at 4 cooling/second, I'd be forced to fire 2 PPCs at a time to avoid shutting down. But we'll squeeze them off 2 then 1 every 4 seconds. Lets begin!
0 seconds fire 2 PPCs = 20 heat (66.67% threshold!)
1 second, cool 4. 16 heat.
2 seconds, cool 4 and fire 1 PPC = 12 + 10 = 22 heat.
3 seconds, cool 4. 18 heat.
4 seconds, cool 4. Fire 2 PPCs = 12 + 20 = 32 = shutdown. Couldn't even make it to 8 seconds!
5 seconds, cool 4. 28 heat.
6 seconds, cool 4. 24 heat.
7 seconds, cool 4. 20 heat.
8 seconds, cool 4, 16 heat. Fire that sixth PPC out of spite = + 10 = 26 heat.
Well damn. Couldn't even make it to six PPCs before a shutdown in the same time frame without ghost heat, let alone the 9 I can do while spitting in the face of ghost heat in MWO!
Actually that was a little rushed. Let's try that again and pace ourselves with heat management.
Trying it again, pacing myself.
20 DHS and 30 threshold at 4 cooling/second, I'd be forced to fire 2 PPCs at a time to avoid shutting down. But we'll squeeze them off 2 then 1 while pacing ourselves. Lets begin!
0 seconds fire 2 PPCs = 20 heat (66.67% threshold!)
1 second, cool 4. 16 heat.
2 seconds, cool 4 and fire 1 PPC = 12 + 10 = 22 heat.
3 seconds, cool 4. 16 heat. If I fire again I'll shutdown. Lets pace!
4 seconds, cool 4. 12 heat.
5 seconds, cool 4. 8 heat. Fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat = 28 heat. ZOMG 93.33% heat! O_O!
6 seconds, cool 4. 24 heat.
7 seconds, cool 4. 20 heat.
8 seconds, cool 4, 16 heat. Fire that sixth PPC now + 10 = 26 heat.
So that's 9 with ghost heat in MWO.
And 6 without ghost heat in Tabletop.
Both with their respective DHS styles and thresholds as dictated by their respective heat systems (MWO and tabletop).
Great thing about it is it doesn't matter what your firing pattern, when you squeeze in 6 PPCs in a heat managed way, you always wind up with the same result in the end. Which means, no matter how we fire them in MWO, we should have identical results so long as we don't hit 100% prematurely.
But that's not the case. It's tampered with using MWO's skill tree, adding an arbitrary percentage which throws things out of whack. Add to this that there's also the rising threshold, which mean nothing is consistent.
What a shame. And you think they're gimped? o.O; So far even when you slap in ghost heat, they allow you superior results. Apparently with the addition of ghost heat, you get 1.5x better results. If you take ghost heat out of the equation, you can easily squeeze in 12 PPCs in that time frame before shutdown.
Edit: Added spoiler to reduce post scroll. (Sorry guys. Math is space consuming.)
Last edit I swear, just tacking more in.
Can we get some XL images to really get the detail? Like the previous releases?
I like this look, seems like the body is longer (vertically) than in the concept art, which throws me a bit.. ..think the roof is more than helicopter ready, as it should be.. ..nice! Think maybe a slightly elongated horizontal torso though.. ..and those beefy legs.. ..woot woo, I want to stroke them! So pretty darn impressed
I keep looking back at the images.. ..need XL, really want to see it close up. Will most likely determine willingness to buy clan package... ...following the success of the stormcrow and adder (the madcat was not quite up to expectations imo).
The BT source material tells us that all 'Mechs are between 8 and 14 meters tall.
This would mean that the smallest 'Mechs (e.g. Flea, Locust) are around 8 meters (~26.25 feet) tall while the tallest 'Mechs (e.g. Atlas, Annihilator) are around 14 meters (~45.93 feet) tall.
In other words, the smallest 'Mechs (with hunched-over body types & not having their hands above their heads) are supposed to be just over half the height of the largest (upright body type) 'Mechs.
For MWO, the Atlas is ~17.6 meters (~57.74 feet) tall - a ~26% increase over the canonical height.
For MWO, the Centurion is ~14.7 meters (~48.23 feet) tall - a ~47% increase over the estimated canonical height.
If the Centurion were re-scaled relative to the Atlas (that is, 26% taller than its BT height), it would be on the order of 12.6 meters tall (the same as the current height of the MWO Cicada).
By contrast, if the Atlas were re-scaled relative to the Centurion (that is, 47% taller than its BT height), it would be on the order of 20.58 meters tall (about 17% taller than it is now).
It stands to reason that the Clan 'Mechs would be similarly scaled up (between 25% and 50% taller than their BT heights), which likely makes the MWO Masakari between 15.13 meters tall (slightly taller than a MWO Centurion) and 18.15 meters tall (slightly taller than a MWO Atlas).
i loved the mech commander manual for these sorts of details oh and mechwarrior 3 manuals gave us the hight although i think they were rounded off. MW4 had different designs and the hights changed with them {i think}
anywhoo not a bad looker though i'm a bit suspect about how wide the CT area is and eveyones made their point about the missle pod. i too would've preffered the upper shoulder but it doesn't kill the design just the use of missles. ssrms only there.
Psst. This build has 20 DHS. It wields after unlocks:
Cooling Rate : 3.91 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 76.8
on forest colony
On Forest colony snow, it wields:
Cooling Rate : 4.89 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 96
And then, if you're so interested..
Lets just look at the cooling rate of 20 DHS in Tabletop.
20 * 2 / 10.
4.0/sec cooling.
You were talking about gimped, earlier?
The DHS is "gimped" by 0.09 on a heat neutral map. That's with ALL 20 MWO DHS; that's all you're gimped, is 0.09 out of the total.
Do you know how insignificant that is? And then you add the threshold increases, and we've essentially got QHS instead of DHS.
Feel free to play with this.
When I click on the weapon lab, I see 64 heat capacity. Since we're talking about the Warhawk here and we don't know if we're going to get mech skill trees or what they'll have if we do get them. I don't think it makes sense to count that yet.
And yes, it is gimped. The firing cycle for weapons in MWO is significantly faster than weapons in tabletop, generally 2-3x faster armor is significantly higher, specifically doubled, to keep times to kill normalized to tabletop. So that means that heat dissipation should be roughly doubled too, right? So we should be sinking about 8 heat per second; or if you want to follow the model that most ammo-based weapons took, about six heat per second, given the 1.5x multiplier of ammo. That Stalker, again, without efficiencies, sinks 3.4 heat per second. Even given the boost to 3.91 afforded by the pilot skills that we don't know the Warhawk will get, that's still quite a bit under tabletop levels, while firing rate is significantly over tabletop levels.
I do hear a lot of "Well then slow down your firing!" It's funny, because nothing but energy boats is subject to that particular penalty. Ballistic-heavy and missile-heavy builds aren't required to drastically slow their fire rates to avoid shutdown. So sure, it's possible to run energy builds in this game, but they're either incredibly niche, or just flat out bad. I also think your QHS (I'm assuming this stands for quad heatsinks, correct me if I'm wrong) implication is more than a bit silly. I'd much rather have a heatsink that increased cooling to 4h/s with no capacity increase instead of the 1.4h/s + 2 capacity sinks we have now. After the first volley and about 3-4 seconds of cooldown, you're sitting at almost exactly double heatsinks for the entire rest of the engagement, instead of quad heatsinks that would continue to cool effectively throughout the whole fight.
The current high-capacity, low-dissipation system we have is bad. I don't like it. But it's a solution to a problem. A hard 30 cap of heat means instant shutdown or close to it for many mechs that are canonically able to fire most or all of their weapons without any averse effects normally, like the AWS-8Q. Again, I hear the usual, "Well I guess you'd have to fire your weapons one at a time" tripe, as though that would be fine. If every weapon in the game were subject to this restriction, it'd be fine (Actually, it'd be great!). But energy weapons are not balanced in a vacuum. If you remove the ability to fire two PPCs at once, cue the mass exodus to AC20s, double AC10s, quad AC5s, and double gauss. Why is it okay for ballistics to fire alphas of 20-30 when it's not okay for energy weapons? This is doubly true when you consider that running a ballistic build vs an energy build requires similar tonnage/crit investments when heatsinks are taken into account.
Ideally, we'd have a heat cap of 30, and then weapon heat generation would have been adjusted such that every weapon was kept stock but for a ten second firing cycle, i.e. if PPCs fire on a five second cycle, they generate five heat per shot for ten heat in ten seconds, an AC2 fires 20 times in ten seconds for .05 heat per shot adding to one heat like in TT. Obviously these numbers need to be adjusted, but essentially this is taking the same idea as the capacity increase, that mechs should be able to fire more than once without shutting down, and achieving it by lowering heat instead of a variable ceiling raise.
And yes, I'm aware of the second tool you linked as well; it's where I got the time-to-cool numbers in my first reply.
15
GreyGriffin, on 05 May 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:
I hope it's the FOV settings they used for taking the screen shots, otherwise the Dire Wolf will also have stubby toes (they share the same leg assemblies since they're closely related).
This topic is locked
